White Coat Radio

Episode 29 — Dr. David Stewart on NAPLEX success

We’re joined in this episode by Dr. David Stewart, Associate Dean of Assessment and Academic Affairs. Dr. Stewart led Gatton’s efforts to improve NAPLEX pass rates, resulting in the college ranking among the top five accredited pharmacy schools nationwide for the Class of 2025, as well as No. 1 in Tennessee and No. 2 in the Southeast. He shares his thoughts on the excellence of our student pharmacists, alumni, faculty, and staff, as well as the collaborative efforts that led to this success.
 
Transcript
Introductory Teaser:
David StewartI think for a student that's either here at the College of Pharmacy or maybe thinking about coming to the Gatton College of Pharmacy. I hope it gives them confidence that when they finish our curriculum, they go through our training program, they're going to have the tools that they need to be successful as a pharmacist. They're going to be able to pass those exams.
Main Episode:
David StewartThey're going to be able to get a license.
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we welcome Doctor David Stewart, associate dean of assessment and academic affairs, as well as professor of pharmacy practice. He is an inaugural faculty member at Gatton, joining the Department of Pharmacy Practice in 2007. Doctor Stewart led the college's efforts to improve its NAPLEX Pass rates, and today he shares about that process, as well as his thoughts on the excellence of our curriculum, our students and alumni, as well as faculty, staff, and the collaborative efforts that led to the college's success.
Stephen WoodwardDoctor Stewart, welcome to White Coat Radio.
David StewartWell thank you. Thanks for having me as a guest today.
Stephen WoodwardSo we have some big news that happened at the college a few weeks ago. Demanded just tell us what happened.
David StewartYeah. So every January we get a report from the National Association of Boards of Pharmacy or in NABP and they give us licensing reports on our licensure exams, the NAPLEX, and North American Pharmacy Licensure Exam, as well as the Multi-State Pharmacy Jurisprudence Exam, also known as the MPJE. And these are the two exams that students need to take in order to get licensed as a pharmacist.
David StewartAnd so we're able to compare our results against the results of schools across the nation. And so for the second time in three years, we had a really high pass rate. I'm proud to say that our class of 2025 was the number five, school in the country for first time pass rate on NAPLEX amongst all accredited schools in the United States.
David StewartAlso was the number one school in Tennessee and number two in the southeast with a 97.7%, first time pass rate on the network's exam.
Michele WilliamsThat's amazing.
Stephen WoodwardThat amazing.
David StewartYeah. And then, you know, the cherry on top of that is that exam I mentioned the MPJE, our in-state first time attempt, pass rate on that. We were number four in the country, number one in the state and number two in the southeast again. So really strong work from our graduates in the class of 2025 for sure.
Michele WilliamsThey really did a great job.
David StewartYeah. And I think the exciting thing for me is this is a, you know, just one group. It's it's mostly the students. We tend to celebrate a lot around here. But really see, alumni from the class of 2025 that did all the hard work and took the exam. But it does represent a team effort. It's the, you know, the students, the graduates taking the exam are faculty, staff working as a team to set them up for success.
David StewartSo really, really proud of everyone's effort.
Michele WilliamsSo, you mentioned the people behind the, the, pass rates, including our amazing students and our faculty and staff. But these successes also reflect some recent changes to Gatton’s curriculum. Right? And so, what kinds of changes have taken place that sort of led to this success?
David StewartYeah. So really, a couple of things. First, you know, we set out on a curricular revision. We've really been planning that revision since before the Covid 19 pandemic. Going back to the 2018, 2019. That did kind of put a damper on things. But in about three years ago, we launched a new curriculum. So our current P3 class is the first class that's, completely going gone through that new curriculum.
David StewartHowever, I will say that along the way, as we identified things that like foundational things that we needed to do better on a lot of that feedback from students after taking the exam or after going through our curriculum. Our faculty were really good, integrating small changes into our legacy curriculum. So I think that what we're seeing, even though these graduates weren't necessarily graduates of our new curriculum, they're graduating with a new curriculum philosophy in mind from the people that are delivering that curriculum to them.
David StewartSo I do expect that things will only get better as we see graduates coming through our our revised curriculum, with our first class graduating in the new curriculum from, in 2027.
Stephen WoodwardAnd these recent results, as I've done, in my opinion, it's not just a one off like a few a couple of years ago, the class of 2023, they were ranked number two in the country for accredited pharmacy schools and number one in Tennessee and our region in the southeast. Right. So this is kind of part of continuing on from just incredible national recognition.
David StewartYeah. And I think if you look back on the history of the Gatton College of Pharmacy, we've always been, you know, kind of at or above average, if you will, when about 4 or 5 years ago, we had, what I would say was a low point for us. I mean, we were right around the national average.
David StewartAnd, if you ask anyone here, our faculty and staff, no one's happy with average. We want to we want to have excellence in all that we do. And so we really embarked on this journey to improve our student success on those exams. And yeah, I think that class of 2023 that you referenced, there is a direct correlation with with some of those changes that we started 4 to 5 years ago about how to better prepare students for the exams.
David StewartCool.
Michele WilliamsSo, what do you think these successes mean for the college and for students pursuing pharmacy?
David StewartWell, I think for a student that's either here at the College of Pharmacy or maybe thinking about coming to the Gatton College of Pharmacy, I hope it gives them confidence that when they finish our curriculum, they go through our training program, they're going to have the tools that they need to be successful as a pharmacist. They're going to be able to pass those exams.
David StewartThey're going to be able to get a license. One of the newest things that we are doing that started last year with this class of 2025, is that we bring them back a month early, so they actually start their fourth year rotations or APPEs or advanced pharmacy practice experiences. In the month of April of their three year and then during the month of April of their four year right before graduation, we spend about four and a half to five weeks preparing them for the exam.
David StewartAnd that allows us to slow that process down and make sure that they have all the fundamental tools they need to be successful on that exam. I think the initial feedback, and that's been very positive, and of course, the results from this first class going through that model are very encouraging as well. So again, that's just another example of things that we're constantly changing and improving.
David StewartSo if you're a student in our program or come into our program, you can rest assured that we're going to prepare you. And my goal, I tell them, in that training program, is that they're ready to walk across the stage and go the next week and take their exams and be licensed as a pharmacist without delay.
Michele WilliamsSo, Doctor Stewart, I know that this is a team effort. Certainly. But you were really the architect of this preparation program that you just described. Can you tell us a little bit more about your, your objectives in developing this program and, and how you put that program together?
David StewartYeah, that's a that's a great question. And, and really speaks to I think it's something that's really important that we had to talk about and work through as a faculty and staff. I mentioned earlier about our our faculty and staff are always focused on excellence. And I think one of the initial, you know, knee jerk reactions when you start talking about exam prep is making sure you're not just teaching an exam, but we want our students to get the necessary skills that they need to go out and be successful.
David StewartPharmacists in making a positive impact on health care and the profession of pharmacy. And so I feel like we really found a sweet spot where we made sure that what we were teaching in the classroom, was, was sound that we were getting those fundamentals in. But as we talked to students, one of the things I did early on is we started revision to this program was just gathered data.
David StewartWhat were the barriers that students were facing as they struggled with these exams? And there's just so many factors out there. Things like, for example, many students come to us now without taking the traditional standardized exams. A lot of folks don't know that. You know, SATs and Acts are not necessarily required for college admissions anymore. Several years ago, they, took away the, PCAT exam, which is the equivalent of the mCAT exam for medical school.
David StewartSo some of our students, we realized, had never actually taken a high stakes external standardized exam before. So some so a lot of this wasn't necessarily that they didn't have the knowledge that they needed. They didn't necessarily know how to tackle a 5 to 6 hour, really large, standardized exam. And so some of the things we did was just prepare them for that exam process.
Michele WilliamsSo the environment you try to mimic that testing environment to give them a sense of so they're not surprised by it or they're not thrown off by it.
David StewartYes. When we collected data from our first class that went through some of the revisions I've talked about, and this was about four years ago, one of the things they rated as the most effective in our program was a simulated nap. And at that point in time, we were able to put that together through practice exams that were offered through NABP
David StewartAnd now there's a new product from NABP called the NAPLEX Advantage, which we use for our students. It gives them more data. It gives us more data based on their performance. But it's basically a practice exam so they can take a simulated Nap exam beforehand. In addition to just taking that practice exam, we really strive to simulate the entire experience so the student knows what it's going to be like from the time that they pull up in their car, in the parking lot of that testing center, to the time that they walk out, that they're not surprised by anything in there.
David StewartSo they're prepared and they can focus on the exam, in performing at the level that that they can perform at, versus being distracted by things that, that they didn't necessarily know were going to happen, like, oh, they're going to take my phone and put it in the locker. Oh, I have to turn my car keys in.
David StewartOh, I forgot my driver's license. It's in the glove box of the car. It's just those little things that can get students flustered on exam day. And what we were hearing from students that weren't used to that or didn't expect that, is that made a big impact on their ability to think and perform well on the exam.
Michele WilliamsThat can really throw you off your game if you don't know how regimented that environment is.
David StewartWell, if you look at, you know, any you get high performing athletes. As an example, you can bet that they're simulating the game environment. They're preparing for that big game, whether it's the Super Bowl or the World Series or whatever. And we're trying to do the same thing for our students. We want to simulate that environment. And have them as prepared as possible for those things so they can focus on doing what they need to do.
David StewartAnd that's, using their knowledge to perform at their highest level on the exam.
Michele WilliamsI think that's great. And then how did you put together the other elements of the the preparatory program?
David StewartYeah. So the very first class, that, that I helped to go through the exam process, we did an assessment after the fact. And one of the things, that that is unique about, our data set, and we're in the process of publishing these data so that others can benefit from this is there's a lot of information getting students opinions and perceptions.
David StewartPreparatory materials or courses as they're in school before they take their exam. We actually surveyed our graduates after they sat for the NAPLEX exam. So their perspective may be different. And we found in some ways it offers additional information than a student who hasn't taken the NAPLEX exam. So then we use the information we got from those graduates after they took their knapsacks, asking them what components of our program set you up for success?
David StewartWhat was effective? What was less effective? And then each year in an iterative process, we make minor changes. But really the things that they said were the highest impact. The back to the the simulated exams, and then some of the, preparatory content that we provided for them. And then things that were less effective, like, for example, at one point we had faculty meeting with students every week during their fourth year.
David StewartThe students told us that's really not effective. We don't feel like it helped as much as other things. So we've taken that away. It's less burdensome for the students. It's less burdensome for the faculty. Yet we're seeing a continual rise in our scores because we're focusing on the high impact interventions that we can make.
Michele WilliamsSo that constant feedback from students and at various points along the way have really informed the way you put this program together.
David StewartYeah. We've really we've really room for a data driven approach to do all that we do. And looking at, you know, not just what do other people do but other people who have successes, what are they doing? You know, looking at your data from people that are in a position to tell us this is what was helpful for me to be successful on this exam.
David StewartAnd we're incorporating those things. Not that other perceptions aren't important, but we feel like those perceptions are more valuable in getting the outcome that we want, which is our students being successful on those exams.
Michele WilliamsSo it sounds like it's about a lot more than just, you know, the the content, the questions. It's it's the totality of the experience of being prepared for the exam.
David StewartIt is. And I want to reiterate that this is really a curricular experience that starts in the P1 year. Yeah. And some of the things that we do are actually going back and reinforcing things like pharmacy calculations. Yeah. They're oftentimes questions on the exam are mirrored in the practice models that students are in in their fourth year.
David StewartAnd so we want to make sure that they know how to do those types of calculations. And if and when they show up on the exam. We also recognize that there are some things that our students do over and over and over and get really good at. But, for example, they probably are really good at taking care of patients with diabetes and heart failure.
David StewartThose are chronic diseases that we see a lot here in rural Appalachia. But not all of our students feel, real comfortable about, calculations around, nutrition support in an inpatient hospital setting. Yet there are questions about that on the exam. Had it in the curriculum, but they've not practiced it day in and day out. So we're just getting them.
David StewartI would I would say we're getting them reps on the types of things that they may not be doing every single day on rotations, that that we know are going to be on that exam so that when they see those questions, they're comfortable and able to appropriately, you're accurately answering them.
Michele WilliamsSo sort of a broader approach so that they don't get, you know, too much of a certain type of question, but kind of broader look at the content.
David StewartOne of the things that I will tell the students is you can't re learn everything in our curriculum during your fourth year. There's a lot of things that you already know, as a fourth year student pharmacist, one of the goals of our program is to help our students self-assess what they know and then what areas they need to work on more, and then encourage them to focus their study time on the areas that they need to, that they need more work in.
David StewartAnd so it's not going to be the same for everyone. So while our program is somewhat of a one size fits all in that they all go through it in the same way, a lot of what we're coaching them and mentoring them on throughout the year is that self-assessment of don't waste your time studying the things that you know and are comfortable with.
David StewartI think, Doctor Williams, you probably see this in your own work as director of academic success and in my experience with students on rotation, was if a student understood, say, the pathophysiology and treatment of diabetes really well, they always wanted to talk about diabetes. They wanted to do their their presentations about diabetes. They wanted to pick up all the patients in the clinic or on the service that had the disease, diabetes, because they were comfortable with that.
David StewartOne of my goals in this preparatory program is to get them to start focusing on the things they're comfortable in, and spend more time studying the areas that they're uncomfortable with so that they're prepared for that rigorous broad exam that ask questions across a plethora of disease states.
Stephen WoodwardWell, it's been really great talking with you, Doctor Stewart and seeing how Gatton is leading in licensure pass rates not only at the state level but on the national level. This is just been that's really exciting news. So we appreciate you coming out today.
David StewartYeah. Well thank you. Thank you for having me. And again, just a shout out really to the graduates. Just the class of 2025. And we mentioned our graduates from the class of 2023 as well. They put in a lot of time and a lot of hard, hard work. So, the huge congratulations to any of our alumni that are out there listening today.
Stephen WoodwardYeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave this review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.edu, slash pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.

Episode 28 — Dr. Ralph Lugo on the role of AI, Gatton's culture, and its 20th Anniversary

We’re joined in this episode by Dr. Ralph Lugo, Senior Associate Dean and Professor at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. He has been with the college since its founding, joining in 2006 as the founding Chair of the Department of Pharmacy Practice and serving in that role for 17 years before being promoted to Senior Associate Dean. Dr. Lugo discusses the role of AI in pharmacy education, including both the benefits and risks of the technology. He also reflects on the college’s 20th Anniversary, how Gatton has grown and evolved over the years, and where he believes it is headed in the future.
Transcript
Teaser Introduction:
Ralph LugoWhat you're going to get here at Gatton is a great education, where you also have high impact opportunities and a wonderful culture, a community focused culture, a student centric culture with relatively small class sizes compared to many other schools where you're going to know your professors and they're going to know you, and you're going to develop lifelong relationships with your colleagues.  That doesn't always happen in all schools.  
Main Episode:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.   Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. On this episode, we talk with Doctor Ralph Lugo, senior associate dean and professor at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. He's been with the college since its founding, joining in 2006 as founding chair of the Department of Pharmacy Practice and serving in that role for 17 years before being promoted to Senior Associate Dean.   Stephen WoodwardDuring this time, again, Doctor Lugo is primarily focused on administration, program development, and teaching. And before coming to Etsu, he served as vice chair of Pharmacotherapy at the University of Utah. Doctor Lugo‚Äôs practice experience and interest is in pediatrics, specifically in pediatric intensive care. His research interests include lifestyle medicine, pediatrics, neonatology, pediatric intensive care, analgesia, sedation, and his research has been supported by the National Institutes of Health.   Stephen WoodwardWell, Doctor Lugo, thanks for coming to Waco Radio today.   Ralph LugoYeah. Thank you, Stephen, for having me. Doctor Williams, thank you for having me today. Look forward to our conversation.   Michele WilliamsWe're happy to have you here.   Stephen WoodwardSo you came again as founding chair of the Department of Pharmacy Practice. Can you talk about your long history here and what roles you currently serve in?   Ralph LugoSure. I came to Gatton in 2006. I was hired in 2005, so I've been here 20 years now, which is just amazing to think that I've been here that long. And I was hired initially as the founding chair of the Department of Pharmacy Practice. As you all know, we have two academic departments Pharmaceutical Sciences and Practice. At the time, at the time, I was at the University of Utah as vice chair of Pharmacy practice and an associate professor in pediatrics.   Ralph LugoI think most people know that my specialty area had been pediatrics in my up but in the air quotes. Former life as a as a clinician in the pediatric intensive care unit. And I had always wanted to come back to the East coast. Was born on the East Coast. I trained in North Carolina, worked in North Carolina. I really enjoyed the South East a lot.   Ralph LugoSo my wife and I, we started a family out in Utah, and we really had a desire to come back east and specifically the southeast. So I saw this position open up, and it was just a natural move for me to move from a vice chair position to a chair position. And I had been in academia long enough that 13 years at the time to be able to handle such a thing.   Ralph LugoOf course, it's always very challenging, but really look forward to the opportunity. But there were some things in particular, I think, that really attracted me to Gatton. Number one, we were starting a college of pharmacy from scratch. There's not a lot of opportunities that come up in the country to start a pharmacy school from scratch, to no avail.   Ralph LugoAnd and you know, there's as you go around the country and you train in different places, you realize that some things you know, I might do a little differently or the culture may not be as I would want it to be in certain places. And so here was this opportunity to start with a clean sheet of paper.   Ralph LugoAnd I thought, what a wonderful professional opportunity that really doesn't come around very often. And and then I interviewed the for the position and was just overwhelmed by the community support for this for this college of pharmacy. Nothing I've really seen before coming from Salt Lake City. City of 1 million plus College of Pharmacy doesn't get much airtime or press.   Ralph LugoAnd it seemed like here at the College of Pharmacy was in the newspaper towns, the city press constantly above the fold type of articles, on the news, on the marquees, on the bumper stickers. I mean, it was just all over and I was just amazed that the community support, so that really attracted me here, as well as meeting with Dean Calhoun at the time, really communicated a student centric focus to Gatton, which I really appreciated.   Ralph LugoSo between all of those things, the stars just aligned the right way from a career standpoint for me and Gatton seemed real attractive in a place that I wanted to live. And then, you know, the place sort of got pushed off into the background somewhat in front and center was there's a great opportunity here in Johnson City to establish something really unique, and I want to be a part of it.   Ralph LugoSo that's really what what got me here. And that's what's kept me here for 20 years.   Michele WilliamsThat's great. So what is your favorite part about your job?   Ralph LugoWell, I love working with students. I'm an administrator at least half my time, but I still teach a lot in the classroom. So depending on the semester, I may be teaching 30 or 40% of my time. In some semesters, I'm teaching 50% of my time. So I teach more than most administrators teach. And that's not something that I wish to give up.   Ralph LugoI really enjoy being in the classroom. I really enjoy being around the students. That's not unique to being a founding chair of the department, but that's a part that I really wanted to hang on to and have hang on to, you know, because I could have given that up in various ways over the years, but I intentionally retain that, especially since I, I no longer practice, and I love practicing, too.   Ralph LugoSo I gave that up because there just wasn't enough time in the day to do all those things. So I gave that up, but did not want to give up teaching. So love teaching, love working with students, love working with the faculty. And that's the that was the hook for me about being a department chair is you really have an opportunity to work closely with the faculty and trying to create opportunities for faculty members, trying to promote them.   Ralph LugoI don't mean promote the necessarily from assistant to associate, but promote them in their career development, to promote them in their daily practice and just just helping them come along as faculty members. That was something that was very attractive to me, and I've enjoyed that ever since. And that's the one thing I actually miss, in being in my current position right now, is I don't work as closely with the faculty members, but I still do work with them.   Ralph LugoSo, because I'm no longer department chair, I'm sure we'll get to that, soon, but, but those are the things I think that I really enjoy about my position.   Stephen WoodwardCan you talk about your transition from department chair to senior associate dean now?   Ralph LugoRight. So, so several years ago, after serving in that as a department chair for, for 17 years, Dean Byrd was, was provided with a wonderful opportunity to serve as interim dean of the College of nursing. And, in order to make that happen, we really needed to have somebody here that could assist, her to continue that leadership role.   Ralph LugoAnd so she asked me to serve as it was at that point, it was called executive associate dean, which has since transitioned, entitled Who's Senior Associate dean. But essentially it functions in the same way. So, a few years ago, that transition occurred when she took over that, that interim role in the College of Nursing. And then she served in that role for a period of time and is now back full time here in the College of Pharmacy.   Ralph LugoAnd I'm still in that position of senior associate dean. So that's how that transition occurred. That's what prompted that transition. I moved into the senior associate dean role, and then Sarah Thomas and moved into the department chair role. And it's been a wonderful transition, a wonderful new challenge for me as well. And I still do many of the same things I did before, even as a department chair, with the exception of working as closely with the faculty, as I mentioned earlier, earlier.   Michele WilliamsSo, what is something that people at Gatton might not know about you?   Ralph LugoI think.   Michele WilliamsRalph LugoI think many people, some people might know about my recent interests from a professional standpoint. As you all know, I trained in pediatrics, served in that capacity for a number of years, and still have an interest in that. But professionally, as the years went on, my interests sort of blossomed in other areas. And that particular area is lifestyle medicine.   Ralph LugoAnd so about 25 years ago, an organization was formed called the American College of Lifestyle Medicine, and it was formed by a number of physicians. And the primary goal and mission of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine is to try to address the root causes of disease and try to improve health through lifestyle interventions. As we all know, we have a very needy, sick population in this country and we have various epidemics that are unfolding as we speak.   Ralph LugoCertainly, diabetes would fall in the category Alzheimer's disease would fall under that category, and cardiovascular disease continues to be the number one killer worldwide and in the US, and of course, cancer as well. And all of these things absolutely need to be addressed. But there's not a lot of reimbursement opportunities to try to prevent disease and try to get at some of the root causes.   Ralph LugoSo that that has been an area that's been somewhat ignored over the years. So this organization was created to try to address root causes and lifestyle modifications. And lifestyle modifications are in many of the guidelines that currently exist for treating various diseases. But the problem is that when physicians say you need to change your diet or you need to change your lifestyle, that's as far as they go in many cases in terms of describing that.   Ralph LugoAnd the patients don't necessarily know what that means. And if you ask ten patients what it means to change your diet, you're going to get 15 different answers. So so this organization is really about trying to prevent disease. So I really sort of latched on to that about ten years ago. And so I'm now working with a number of students, seven students actually to write four papers.   Ralph LugoNo, it's actually more than that. It's 8 or 9 students to write four papers on the pharmacist's role in lifestyle intervention, the community pharmacist in particular. So things like preventing dementia, things like preventing anxiety and depression, that's what we're writing on. We're writing on we're we're considering just writing on the pharmacist role in lifestyle modifications in the community pharmacy, trying to educate pharmacists and give them the tools necessary to be able to address these issues in their patients.   Ralph LugoWe have a captive audience here. We have patients coming to the pharmacy, and pharmacists are the most accessible health care workers. So there's a great opportunity for this intervention. But pharmacists need to be educated in this area of lifestyle medicine, and it's not currently in the curriculum. So I'm trying to champion more education about that. Part of the way I'm doing that is through scholarship, writing articles and engaging students.   Ralph LugoI hope to develop an elective in this area in the near future, and I think a number of students would probably be very interested in that.   Michele WilliamsDefinitely.   Ralph LugoSo I think if you just bring this back to your question, Doctor Williams, I, I think probably many students don't know that some faculty might know it, but not all faculty might know. And so I'd say that's that's an area that, that's probably at least known about me.   Michele WilliamsAnd they know it now. So yes, that's right. More requests for students to participate in that research. That's right. You're doing. Yeah.   Stephen WoodwardWhat? And I know everybody knows about you that you're a huge fan of AI and that the rise of AI over the past few years is just it seems like it's taken over, not quite in like, Terminator style yet, but maybe we're getting close to that. Can you talk about how you got interested in artificial intelligence and what do you find most useful about.   Ralph LugoYeah, AI is is really interesting. I like to utilize technology as a tool, not just I, you know. Yeah, some of the faculty, they'll probably poke, poke fun at me because I'm always looking for a better app to do certain things. You know, whether it's project management and some faculty. I won't name any names, but some faculty may laugh at me in terms of, you know, the newest and the greatest project management tool, a doctor you logos using well, whether it's Trello or whether it's Clickup, which is which is what I'm using right now.   Ralph LugoSo there's a little bit of fun there that folks have with me. So I've always been very interested in utilizing technology to improve efficiency. I'm very much about maximizing efficiency, whether it's.   Ralph LugoDriving a car that has good gas mileage or whether it's squeezing every dollar out of your budget or whether it's, trying to get the most work out of a work day. You know, that's just kind of like how I'm wired. And so technology has always been a part of that. So that got me interested. And then when I found out about I happened to be in a, I was in a, a faculty meeting on main campus, it was a it was a group of faculty members, that were addressing, it was actually a number of chairs that were meeting and we were addressing the charge to write a faculty handbook for new   Ralph Lugochairs. This was about four years ago. And the, the, person that was leading this, this committee said I used ChatGPT to give me an outline of what a faculty handbook would look like. And he showed it and I was like, wow, that is amazing. Now, meanwhile, I had heard of ChatGPT. I wasn't quite sure exactly what it did or what it was, but I was amazed at the output.   Ralph LugoSo I started tinkering a little bit with it and then, you know, and then things began to snowball. And then we had a number of, faculty development sessions here at the college. I actually gave one of those sessions and, and we went to a number of national meetings where we had sessions on a all things I. So I learned a lot about it.   Ralph LugoAnd now I would consider myself. I'm certainly not an expert at it, but I'm probably an early adopter and I'm very enthusiastic about its potential. I'm not completely ignorant about the downside of using AI. It certainly does have downsides and limitations and disadvantages, but I think a lot of things do, you know, and people say the internet has downsides.   Ralph LugoYeah. If you're in the wrong places at the wrong time, it can be very detrimental. Right? But it's got a huge upside to so it's just a matter of trying to balance that and learning when to best utilize and how to best utilize AI in order to help you in your productivity guardrails. So let me talk a little bit about guardrails with AI use, because that's what people will ask about is this like, how do we how do we put guardrails around its use so that it can be used wisely?   Ralph LugoSo I would say, first and foremost, we need as a foundational issue, we need transparency. It needs to be clear when AI is being used. It's a, it's a, some measure of academic honesty and, being genuine is to declare when AI is used in order to assist with certain things. And that's coming from a professional standpoint, but from a student standpoint, too, academic honesty really depends on disclosing when I was used.   Ralph LugoAnd so we need to we need to set up guardrails about disclosure. And I think that needs to be in policies as we move forward. Things are changing so rapidly. Policies are being developed, guidelines are being developed. So I think those things will be important to include moving forward. The other part of guardrails is we need to be careful about not encouraging students to take shortcuts around critical thinking.   Ralph LugoWe are trying to teach critical thinking here at the College of Pharmacy. That is an important outcome, and there are certain exercises that require critical thinking. It's not necessarily we're trying to get the answer as quickly as possible. We're trying to put you through that exercise of critical thinking and synthesizing and taking all this information that you're learning over the years and coming up with a cohesive, cogent answer.   Ralph LugoAnd that's the exercise. That's the benefit. You got to struggle a little bit with that. Well, we can assign that to AI and come up with an answer. And, a 10th of the time, perhaps, but the student will not have grown from that exercise of critical thinking, and they may not know how to critically think if they continue to take shortcuts.   Ralph LugoSo we need to have mechanisms in place to protect those critical thinking opportunities. Also, clinical reasoning students need to be able to reason through certain questions, and they need that practice. They need also to, demonstrate competencies. You know, our skills, we have these skills here in the in the college. They have certain things like oral exams or direct observations or practice labs where you have to display certain competencies.   Ralph LugoYou're able to do certain things. AI is not going to help you there. So so that's an important part of the guardrail as well. And then, faculty development from our faculty need to be, competent users themselves before they can be thoughtful regulators. So we as faculty need to create these guardrails. We need to create these policies.   Ralph LugoBut we also need to be able to utilize them, utilize AI ourselves so that we know where the pitfalls are, where the landmines are, and where students can get into trouble. So, we're in the process of, in AI and I say we I mean, college pharmacy, Etsu, the academy, the profession. You know, we're in the process of developing these things as we go along.   Ralph LugoAnd in the meantime, we have people that are, like, totally embracing it. And we have people that are tepidly cautious. And then we have people that are naysayers. And so all the above, I, I'm, I'm enthusiastic, but not ignorantly, ignorantly. So in other words, I'm not just embracing everything. I, I think it needs to be within the context of guardrails.   Ralph LugoMichele WilliamsI agree, I share some of your concerns about AI co-opting somebody's ability to think critically or to even just practice those skills of reasoning through a problem and problem solving. On their own. I know in the classroom they have opportunities to do that, but it, it does seem like it would be very tempting to get AI to do some of that.   Michele WilliamsSo I think, yeah. What you talk about with, with guardrails and, and not only guardrails, but sort of offering rationales and helping students look further down the road to why is it that you need to be the person doing this sort of reasoning and thinking?   Ralph LugoYeah. And and how to use AI in the context of that reasoning? You know, I can be right. Appropriately, AI can be a tool in that reasoning process, maybe to provide them with some information as long as the information is double checked in terms of accuracy. But the reasoning is really important, and human judgment enters that reasoning very often.   Ralph LugoSo things like empathy, things like, context of patient care, you know, understanding Mrs. Jones social situation and the fact, whatever her limitations are socially, you know, she doesn't get out of the house or she limited mobility or all these things go into helping to make decisions for patients that I can't necessarily reason through. And you have ethical decisions as well that come up.   Ralph LugoAnd I again, may not be able to help with that. I, we have to recognize that AI is trained on a data base that exists in the past. And so there may be some ethical situations that come up which are contemporary, which are not necessarily in the training data base that one needs to think through critically in order to come up with an answer to best fit that patient.   Ralph LugoIt's kind of like evidence based medicine in a way. We can have all of the objective clinical trial data on a drug. We can say very clearly, this is the most efficacious drug for this disease. State, but if Mrs. Jones is not going to take it, or if it's too expensive for Mrs. Jones, or if there's three other reasons why it's not going to work and Mrs. Jones, then it may not be the best drug for Mrs. Jones, even though it has the most compelling data.   Ralph LugoSo it's the same with I may gave you some very good objective information, but it needs to be contextualized so that you can determine what is best for this patient. That requires empathy, human reason, human judgment, contextualization and AI at this point doesn't do all of those things. Yeah.   Ralph LugoYou know, I might I might mention another thing. And I know Doctor Williams, this kind of resonates with you with regard to professional identity formation. I know that's an area of interest for you. But, you know, one of the things as we're trying to develop professionals here at the Gatton College of Pharmacy is we want students to be able to wrestle with difficult questions and sometimes failure, sometimes critique, sometimes not having the right answer, sometimes struggling and being corrected helps with that professional identity formation so that it helps them become a better professional.   Ralph LugoAnd, you know, I can think we were just having a conversation just recently, another faculty member and I, about some of the students in the past that may have had some academic or behavioral challenges, shall we say. And I'm talking about the distant past. And I think in some cases, some of these some students may be young. They may they may not have that full maturity.   Ralph LugoCertainly they're not fully matured professionally, that professional identity formation. But they've they went through a process that helped to correct them, to guide them, to corral them and shepherd them. And in that process, they came out on the other end and have created wonderful careers for themselves through that process. And sometimes a few hard knocks along the way will help people correct course, correct along the way, and help them become more successful.   Ralph LugoSo that's, you know, it's not always about having the right answer. That's true. And having all your eyes dotted and t's crossed, which I tends to do. Right. Great answer. I now let's put it in the context of training pharmacy students.   Michele WilliamsI agree, I agree.   Stephen WoodwardIt's got to be pretty satisfying to see a student from a long time ago struggle, but then come out on the other side and then go on to in a career.   Ralph LugoYeah. Very much succeed. Right. Yeah. And and you don't appreciate it or recognize it immediately until years down the road and you kind of look back and you say, wow, this person's really made a name for herself or himself. And and it's not always about making a name for yourself, but that making a name for yourself is usually because you're a great pharmacist and you take care of patients in a in a great way.   Ralph LugoAnd, you do all the things necessary to be a wonderful practitioner. And so that's really what it's about, whether you make a name for yourself or not. Yeah.   Stephen WoodwardWell, so you talked about you came to Gatton, I think you were hired in 2005, which was at the time of the founding 20 years ago. We're celebrating our 20th anniversary this academic year. Talk about the importance of our 20th anniversary here at Gatton, how far you've seen us come and where you think we're going in the future.   Ralph LugoYeah, that's a that's a great question. 20 years is a great milestone. So it's 25 and we'll probably have, you know, even a bigger celebration at 25. But it sort of represents similar milestones in some respects. And what I mean by that is that many of our founding faculty are still here, and we can look back at the early days and we can appreciate the struggles, and we can appreciate the challenges, and we can appreciate where we have come from and what we have built over the years.   Ralph LugoSo in many respects, 20 years, 25 years represents as somewhat of an inflection point where you have enough people here that were here in the beginning that recognize that the first 20 years was like maybe chapter one, or maybe it's, you know, maybe it's one with various sub chapters, but really it's it was when we started, it was we were getting things off the ground, and we achieved a number of wonderful things in those first 20 years in not only accreditation and re accreditation, of course, but we also achieved great academic, achievements nationally.   Ralph LugoYou know, winning a CCP clinical Challenge award twice, community service awards at the national level. Our operation study is an award winner. Now I think it's 12 years in a row, either national or regional. And it's just it's just amazing to think that a new school would achieve that level of national recognition and, national prowess, in the first two decades.   Ralph LugoI think as we look forward, not only oh and I'll, I'll mention one more thing about those first 20 years is that we grounded ourselves in an amazing and outstanding culture. And that's where Gatton really shines in many respects. There are a lot of good schools academically. There are a lot of good schools that do community service.   Ralph LugoWhen I tell applicants that that, applied to Gatton is you can get a pharm.d from many places where academically you're going to get a great education. What you're going to get here at Gatton is a great education, where you also have high impact opportunities and a wonderful culture, a community focused culture, a student centric culture with relatively small class sizes compared to many other schools, where you're going to know your professors and they're going to know you, and you're going to develop lifelong relationships with your colleagues, that doesn't always happen in all schools.   Ralph LugoAnd so in the beginning, that was our aspiration to create that culture. That was the vision of Larry Calhoun, our founding dean. And he did that very well. And he articulated that to the faculty and the students and to the leadership team. And we just have propagated that forward over the last 20 years. And now, of course, Dean Debbie Byrd is in place for the last ten years.   Ralph LugoAnd she of course, that's what she's about as well. So it was like we didn't even misstep when we changed deans. And so it's been this continuous progress of developing this amazing culture. Great place to work, great place to learn, student centric, people come first, you know, all bathed in academic excellence and, and community and student service.   Ralph LugoRight. So that's a great three legged stool, right? Service. Community service, academic excellence and culture. Now in the next 20 years, we're going to have people retire. We're going to have people that maybe weren't here in the beginning. So there's going to be a little bit of a different flavor. But I'm fully anticipating that the culture is here to stay because we have foundationally set it in concrete and then the concrete is dry.   Ralph LugoSo I don't think it's going anywhere. And, you know, in the first three years or five years, maybe the concrete hadn't dried yet, but but now I think the concrete is dry. Everybody carries this culture, you know, inside of them. It's part of the fabric of who the faculty and students are. We talk about it a lot. We cultivated and and so I don't think it's going to change in the next 15, 20 years.   Ralph LugoSo that's going to continue. But now we've added some other things, you know, now we're we're working on streamlining our curriculum to become the most relevant, essential curriculum for training pharmacists. So that's what we just recently did in our curricular revision. And and also we're looking out towards our research and trying to improve our scholarship and our productivity from a research perspective so that we can become better known for our scholarly output and our research productivity, especially in the context of Etsu use research strategic plan and their, desire to improve scholarship as headed up by Nick Haggar.   Ralph LugoMeyer, who's also one of us, here at the College of Pharmacy. So I think as we project out, it's a little bit of an inflection point. Just to summarize a little bit of an inflection point. And over the next 10 to 20 years, you're going to see people are not going to remember the beginning anymore. But I think we've wound this thing up sufficiently that there's enough momentum keeping it moving forward in the ways that are important, these high impact ways that it's not going to turn around anytime soon.   Ralph LugoAnd we can just build on our successes and make it even a better place next decade, next two decades. Good to great is kind of our motto.   Stephen WoodwardI love what you said about culture. I feel like, I mean, I've been here almost seven years. I don't think I realized how important culture is for just organizations in general. But hearing you articulated, kind of experiencing it here from a newer, newish organization like it's super important as the foundation and just helps lay the groundwork for everything else that is laid upon it as a like a good, solid structure.   Ralph LugoYou know, I think that's the reason why we've been so successful in, attracting students. I mean, every, every year we sit down with the PS1 students. The dean has a lunch with subgroups of the P-1 class, 8 to 10 at a time. And we ask them why they came here and what are the things that attracted them about Gatton College of Pharmacy?   Ralph LugoAnd everybody talks about there are a number of things that attracted them. Of course, geographic location is always important, and there's a number of things that are important. But the culture and the receptivity and the warmth. Yeah. On their interview day is somewhat unmatched by other places. And so they felt at home here immediately, and that that's what attracts them.   Ralph LugoAlso, I think that's what keeps people here, both staff and faculty. Is that it? For that reason, it's a good place to work. You don't you don't have the, some of the, problems that other universities have with, disgruntled employees and backstabbing and competitiveness, and it just doesn't exist here. So it's just from that standpoint is just a wonderful place to work.   Ralph LugoAnd I think we probably after a while, we probably take that for granted. And, you know, if you went to another school someplace else, you might say, oh, I think things a little bit differently. Yeah. So, you know, I've been to a number of schools around the country, and, things are different here again.   Michele WilliamsYeah. And I, I think that culture is very intentional. That's not, it it doesn't just accidentally work like.   Ralph LugoYeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it is definitely something you have to work at. It's got to it has to be something that's articulated from the leaders of the college initially. And, and it needs to be reinforced regularly. And it needs to not just be said you actually need to live the words walk the walk talk the talk.   Ralph LugoYou know, do all of those sayings. Right. And, and eventually people start to embrace it and it becomes clear when somebody is operating outside of those cultural boundaries. And I think there is just this natural pressure towards in a good way towards this is how we are. I get, you know, this is the Gatton way. You know, people have said that before, right, that this is not the Gatton way or this is the other way.   Ralph LugoSo it helps us and everybody knows what that means. You know, and probably I would say the students know what that means too. So it's something that that is cultivated, something that is repeated. And we even talk about it in our strategic plan, you know, in terms of environment. Yeah.   Michele WilliamsThis has been such an interesting and sort of far reaching conversation. I've enjoyed every minute of it. Are there any other things that that you would like to talk about or that we haven't asked you about?   Ralph LugoWell, you know, I think something just came to mind, that I think may be worth discussing and that's wellbeing and something that Gatton is all about to, and that's somewhat unique among colleges is we pay a lot of attention to the well-being of our students, the well-being of our faculty and staff. We're doing a survey this year for our staff, for wellbeing faculty and staff, for wellbeing.   Ralph LugoAnd of course, we surveyed the students and we have for a number of years now. So we're able to track their well-being in all of the domains that Gallup would promote. And we track that over time, and we can see where students will drop in their wellbeing scores. And that's a great time for us as a college to intervene and try to promote wellbeing during that time.   Ralph LugoSo, with that as a background or a backdrop, I, the faculty advisor, one of the faculty advisors on the wellbeing Student Wellbeing committee. And one of the things that I'm working on with the research subcommittee of the Student Wellbeing Committee, that's a lot of work.   Stephen WoodwardThat and also loves its committees.   Ralph LugoYes. That's right. Yeah. Great committees. So that's the research subcommittee. We're working on ways that we can take the current research dealing with wellbeing and wellness and lifestyle medicine. As I mentioned earlier, this all fits together right. And yeah. And and draw on the research that is coming out relative to nutrition, relative to physical activity, relative to stress reduction, relative to social connection and, and encourage our students to promote their wellbeing through being aware of the research, adopting the research habits and patterns that are being developed.   Ralph LugoSo for example, we're just we're working on our first push out. I think that's a word. We're working on pushing out our first, I'll call it publication. Our first, information from this student wellbeing subcommittee, research subcommittee. And we're trying to do it in ways where students will appreciate the the presentation. So we're thinking about maybe infographics.   Ralph LugoWe're thinking about a short podcast of maybe, like 5 or 6 minutes with some graphics of a video podcast. We're thinking about a short written document. So just ways that we can encourage students to adopt some of the, contemporary research findings relative to wellbeing. And, and then at the same time, they learn about this to help their patients in the future.   Ralph LugoSo it's not just about them, it's about helping their patients as well. So we're going to be coming out with our first, stuff publication, here in the next few weeks. I had a meeting with them this week, and we've prepared some materials. Which I would actually meant to bring down so you all can look at it and see it.   Ralph LugoI'd love to share that with you and get your thoughts on it before it gets pushed out. But, yeah, we're we're really excited about this aspect of, the Gatton culture, because that is really part of our culture too, is to try to enhance wellbeing.   Stephen WoodwardYeah. That's great. Thanks for sharing. I think that's a wrap. Thank you for being here. I appreciate your time.   Ralph LugoThank you for this podcast. And this podcast has been amazingly successful. So, kudos to both of you. And in creating this and keeping it going. And I think it does a great service to our students and faculty and staff, our community, and even across the country.   Stephen WoodwardSo we appreciate it. Thank you very much.   Michele WilliamsThank you. All right.   Stephen WoodwardI'll get it off. Thanks. Awesome. Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave this review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsy.com, slash pharmacy or follow us on social media at Etsy Pharmacy. We'll see you next time.  
Ralph LugoWhat you're going to get here at Gatton is a great education, where you also have high impact opportunities and a wonderful culture, a community focused culture, a student centric culture with relatively small class sizes compared to many other schools where you're going to know your professors and they're going to know you, and you're going to develop lifelong relationships with your colleagues.  That doesn't always happen in all schools.   Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.   Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. On this episode, we talk with Doctor Ralph Lugo, senior associate dean and professor at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. He's been with the college since its founding, joining in 2006 as founding chair of the Department of Pharmacy Practice and serving in that role for 17 years before being promoted to Senior Associate Dean.   Stephen WoodwardDuring this time, again, Doctor Lugo is primarily focused on administration, program development, and teaching. And before coming to Etsu, he served as vice chair of Pharmacotherapy at the University of Utah. Doctor Lugo‚Äôs practice experience and interest is in pediatrics, specifically in pediatric intensive care. His research interests include lifestyle medicine, pediatrics, neonatology, pediatric intensive care, analgesia, sedation, and his research has been supported by the National Institutes of Health.   Stephen WoodwardWell, Doctor Lugo, thanks for coming to Waco Radio today.   Ralph LugoYeah. Thank you, Stephen, for having me. Doctor Williams, thank you for having me today. Look forward to our conversation.   Michele WilliamsWe're happy to have you here.   Stephen WoodwardSo you came again as founding chair of the Department of Pharmacy Practice. Can you talk about your long history here and what roles you currently serve in?   Ralph LugoSure. I came to Gatton in 2006. I was hired in 2005, so I've been here 20 years now, which is just amazing to think that I've been here that long. And I was hired initially as the founding chair of the Department of Pharmacy Practice. As you all know, we have two academic departments Pharmaceutical Sciences and Practice. At the time, at the time, I was at the University of Utah as vice chair of Pharmacy practice and an associate professor in pediatrics.   Ralph LugoI think most people know that my specialty area had been pediatrics in my up but in the air quotes. Former life as a as a clinician in the pediatric intensive care unit. And I had always wanted to come back to the East coast. Was born on the East Coast. I trained in North Carolina, worked in North Carolina. I really enjoyed the South East a lot.   Ralph LugoSo my wife and I, we started a family out in Utah, and we really had a desire to come back east and specifically the southeast. So I saw this position open up, and it was just a natural move for me to move from a vice chair position to a chair position. And I had been in academia long enough that 13 years at the time to be able to handle such a thing.   Ralph LugoOf course, it's always very challenging, but really look forward to the opportunity. But there were some things in particular, I think, that really attracted me to Gatton. Number one, we were starting a college of pharmacy from scratch. There's not a lot of opportunities that come up in the country to start a pharmacy school from scratch, to no avail.   Ralph LugoAnd and you know, there's as you go around the country and you train in different places, you realize that some things you know, I might do a little differently or the culture may not be as I would want it to be in certain places. And so here was this opportunity to start with a clean sheet of paper.   Ralph LugoAnd I thought, what a wonderful professional opportunity that really doesn't come around very often. And and then I interviewed the for the position and was just overwhelmed by the community support for this for this college of pharmacy. Nothing I've really seen before coming from Salt Lake City. City of 1 million plus College of Pharmacy doesn't get much airtime or press.   Ralph LugoAnd it seemed like here at the College of Pharmacy was in the newspaper towns, the city press constantly above the fold type of articles, on the news, on the marquees, on the bumper stickers. I mean, it was just all over and I was just amazed that the community support, so that really attracted me here, as well as meeting with Dean Calhoun at the time, really communicated a student centric focus to Gatton, which I really appreciated.   Ralph LugoSo between all of those things, the stars just aligned the right way from a career standpoint for me and Gatton seemed real attractive in a place that I wanted to live. And then, you know, the place sort of got pushed off into the background somewhat in front and center was there's a great opportunity here in Johnson City to establish something really unique, and I want to be a part of it.   Ralph LugoSo that's really what what got me here. And that's what's kept me here for 20 years.   Michele WilliamsThat's great. So what is your favorite part about your job?   Ralph LugoWell, I love working with students. I'm an administrator at least half my time, but I still teach a lot in the classroom. So depending on the semester, I may be teaching 30 or 40% of my time. In some semesters, I'm teaching 50% of my time. So I teach more than most administrators teach. And that's not something that I wish to give up.   Ralph LugoI really enjoy being in the classroom. I really enjoy being around the students. That's not unique to being a founding chair of the department, but that's a part that I really wanted to hang on to and have hang on to, you know, because I could have given that up in various ways over the years, but I intentionally retain that, especially since I, I no longer practice, and I love practicing, too.   Ralph LugoSo I gave that up because there just wasn't enough time in the day to do all those things. So I gave that up, but did not want to give up teaching. So love teaching, love working with students, love working with the faculty. And that's the that was the hook for me about being a department chair is you really have an opportunity to work closely with the faculty and trying to create opportunities for faculty members, trying to promote them.   Ralph LugoI don't mean promote the necessarily from assistant to associate, but promote them in their career development, to promote them in their daily practice and just just helping them come along as faculty members. That was something that was very attractive to me, and I've enjoyed that ever since. And that's the one thing I actually miss, in being in my current position right now, is I don't work as closely with the faculty members, but I still do work with them.   Ralph LugoSo, because I'm no longer department chair, I'm sure we'll get to that, soon, but, but those are the things I think that I really enjoy about my position.   Stephen WoodwardCan you talk about your transition from department chair to senior associate dean now?   Ralph LugoRight. So, so several years ago, after serving in that as a department chair for, for 17 years, Dean Byrd was, was provided with a wonderful opportunity to serve as interim dean of the College of nursing. And, in order to make that happen, we really needed to have somebody here that could assist, her to continue that leadership role.   Ralph LugoAnd so she asked me to serve as it was at that point, it was called executive associate dean, which has since transitioned, entitled Who's Senior Associate dean. But essentially it functions in the same way. So, a few years ago, that transition occurred when she took over that, that interim role in the College of Nursing. And then she served in that role for a period of time and is now back full time here in the College of Pharmacy.   Ralph LugoAnd I'm still in that position of senior associate dean. So that's how that transition occurred. That's what prompted that transition. I moved into the senior associate dean role, and then Sarah Thomas and moved into the department chair role. And it's been a wonderful transition, a wonderful new challenge for me as well. And I still do many of the same things I did before, even as a department chair, with the exception of working as closely with the faculty, as I mentioned earlier, earlier.   Michele WilliamsSo, what is something that people at Gatton might not know about you?   Ralph LugoI think.   Michele WilliamsRalph LugoI think many people, some people might know about my recent interests from a professional standpoint. As you all know, I trained in pediatrics, served in that capacity for a number of years, and still have an interest in that. But professionally, as the years went on, my interests sort of blossomed in other areas. And that particular area is lifestyle medicine.   Ralph LugoAnd so about 25 years ago, an organization was formed called the American College of Lifestyle Medicine, and it was formed by a number of physicians. And the primary goal and mission of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine is to try to address the root causes of disease and try to improve health through lifestyle interventions. As we all know, we have a very needy, sick population in this country and we have various epidemics that are unfolding as we speak.   Ralph LugoCertainly, diabetes would fall in the category Alzheimer's disease would fall under that category, and cardiovascular disease continues to be the number one killer worldwide and in the US, and of course, cancer as well. And all of these things absolutely need to be addressed. But there's not a lot of reimbursement opportunities to try to prevent disease and try to get at some of the root causes.   Ralph LugoSo that that has been an area that's been somewhat ignored over the years. So this organization was created to try to address root causes and lifestyle modifications. And lifestyle modifications are in many of the guidelines that currently exist for treating various diseases. But the problem is that when physicians say you need to change your diet or you need to change your lifestyle, that's as far as they go in many cases in terms of describing that.   Ralph LugoAnd the patients don't necessarily know what that means. And if you ask ten patients what it means to change your diet, you're going to get 15 different answers. So so this organization is really about trying to prevent disease. So I really sort of latched on to that about ten years ago. And so I'm now working with a number of students, seven students actually to write four papers.   Ralph LugoNo, it's actually more than that. It's 8 or 9 students to write four papers on the pharmacist's role in lifestyle intervention, the community pharmacist in particular. So things like preventing dementia, things like preventing anxiety and depression, that's what we're writing on. We're writing on we're we're considering just writing on the pharmacist role in lifestyle modifications in the community pharmacy, trying to educate pharmacists and give them the tools necessary to be able to address these issues in their patients.   Ralph LugoWe have a captive audience here. We have patients coming to the pharmacy, and pharmacists are the most accessible health care workers. So there's a great opportunity for this intervention. But pharmacists need to be educated in this area of lifestyle medicine, and it's not currently in the curriculum. So I'm trying to champion more education about that. Part of the way I'm doing that is through scholarship, writing articles and engaging students.   Ralph LugoI hope to develop an elective in this area in the near future, and I think a number of students would probably be very interested in that.   Michele WilliamsDefinitely.   Ralph LugoSo I think if you just bring this back to your question, Doctor Williams, I, I think probably many students don't know that some faculty might know it, but not all faculty might know. And so I'd say that's that's an area that, that's probably at least known about me.   Michele WilliamsAnd they know it now. So yes, that's right. More requests for students to participate in that research. That's right. You're doing. Yeah.   Stephen WoodwardWhat? And I know everybody knows about you that you're a huge fan of AI and that the rise of AI over the past few years is just it seems like it's taken over, not quite in like, Terminator style yet, but maybe we're getting close to that. Can you talk about how you got interested in artificial intelligence and what do you find most useful about.   Ralph LugoYeah, AI is is really interesting. I like to utilize technology as a tool, not just I, you know. Yeah, some of the faculty, they'll probably poke, poke fun at me because I'm always looking for a better app to do certain things. You know, whether it's project management and some faculty. I won't name any names, but some faculty may laugh at me in terms of, you know, the newest and the greatest project management tool, a doctor you logos using well, whether it's Trello or whether it's Clickup, which is which is what I'm using right now.   Ralph LugoSo there's a little bit of fun there that folks have with me. So I've always been very interested in utilizing technology to improve efficiency. I'm very much about maximizing efficiency, whether it's.   Ralph LugoDriving a car that has good gas mileage or whether it's squeezing every dollar out of your budget or whether it's, trying to get the most work out of a work day. You know, that's just kind of like how I'm wired. And so technology has always been a part of that. So that got me interested. And then when I found out about I happened to be in a, I was in a, a faculty meeting on main campus, it was a it was a group of faculty members, that were addressing, it was actually a number of chairs that were meeting and we were addressing the charge to write a faculty handbook for new   Ralph Lugochairs. This was about four years ago. And the, the, person that was leading this, this committee said I used ChatGPT to give me an outline of what a faculty handbook would look like. And he showed it and I was like, wow, that is amazing. Now, meanwhile, I had heard of ChatGPT. I wasn't quite sure exactly what it did or what it was, but I was amazed at the output.   Ralph LugoSo I started tinkering a little bit with it and then, you know, and then things began to snowball. And then we had a number of, faculty development sessions here at the college. I actually gave one of those sessions and, and we went to a number of national meetings where we had sessions on a all things I. So I learned a lot about it.   Ralph LugoAnd now I would consider myself. I'm certainly not an expert at it, but I'm probably an early adopter and I'm very enthusiastic about its potential. I'm not completely ignorant about the downside of using AI. It certainly does have downsides and limitations and disadvantages, but I think a lot of things do, you know, and people say the internet has downsides.   Ralph LugoYeah. If you're in the wrong places at the wrong time, it can be very detrimental. Right? But it's got a huge upside to so it's just a matter of trying to balance that and learning when to best utilize and how to best utilize AI in order to help you in your productivity guardrails. So let me talk a little bit about guardrails with AI use, because that's what people will ask about is this like, how do we how do we put guardrails around its use so that it can be used wisely?   Ralph LugoSo I would say, first and foremost, we need as a foundational issue, we need transparency. It needs to be clear when AI is being used. It's a, it's a, some measure of academic honesty and, being genuine is to declare when AI is used in order to assist with certain things. And that's coming from a professional standpoint, but from a student standpoint, too, academic honesty really depends on disclosing when I was used.   Ralph LugoAnd so we need to we need to set up guardrails about disclosure. And I think that needs to be in policies as we move forward. Things are changing so rapidly. Policies are being developed, guidelines are being developed. So I think those things will be important to include moving forward. The other part of guardrails is we need to be careful about not encouraging students to take shortcuts around critical thinking.   Ralph LugoWe are trying to teach critical thinking here at the College of Pharmacy. That is an important outcome, and there are certain exercises that require critical thinking. It's not necessarily we're trying to get the answer as quickly as possible. We're trying to put you through that exercise of critical thinking and synthesizing and taking all this information that you're learning over the years and coming up with a cohesive, cogent answer.   Ralph LugoAnd that's the exercise. That's the benefit. You got to struggle a little bit with that. Well, we can assign that to AI and come up with an answer. And, a 10th of the time, perhaps, but the student will not have grown from that exercise of critical thinking, and they may not know how to critically think if they continue to take shortcuts.   Ralph LugoSo we need to have mechanisms in place to protect those critical thinking opportunities. Also, clinical reasoning students need to be able to reason through certain questions, and they need that practice. They need also to, demonstrate competencies. You know, our skills, we have these skills here in the in the college. They have certain things like oral exams or direct observations or practice labs where you have to display certain competencies.   Ralph LugoYou're able to do certain things. AI is not going to help you there. So so that's an important part of the guardrail as well. And then, faculty development from our faculty need to be, competent users themselves before they can be thoughtful regulators. So we as faculty need to create these guardrails. We need to create these policies.   Ralph LugoBut we also need to be able to utilize them, utilize AI ourselves so that we know where the pitfalls are, where the landmines are, and where students can get into trouble. So, we're in the process of, in AI and I say we I mean, college pharmacy, Etsu, the academy, the profession. You know, we're in the process of developing these things as we go along.   Ralph LugoAnd in the meantime, we have people that are, like, totally embracing it. And we have people that are tepidly cautious. And then we have people that are naysayers. And so all the above, I, I'm, I'm enthusiastic, but not ignorantly, ignorantly. So in other words, I'm not just embracing everything. I, I think it needs to be within the context of guardrails.   Ralph LugoMichele WilliamsI agree, I share some of your concerns about AI co-opting somebody's ability to think critically or to even just practice those skills of reasoning through a problem and problem solving. On their own. I know in the classroom they have opportunities to do that, but it, it does seem like it would be very tempting to get AI to do some of that.   Michele WilliamsSo I think, yeah. What you talk about with, with guardrails and, and not only guardrails, but sort of offering rationales and helping students look further down the road to why is it that you need to be the person doing this sort of reasoning and thinking?   Ralph LugoYeah. And and how to use AI in the context of that reasoning? You know, I can be right. Appropriately, AI can be a tool in that reasoning process, maybe to provide them with some information as long as the information is double checked in terms of accuracy. But the reasoning is really important, and human judgment enters that reasoning very often.   Ralph LugoSo things like empathy, things like, context of patient care, you know, understanding Mrs. Jones social situation and the fact, whatever her limitations are socially, you know, she doesn't get out of the house or she limited mobility or all these things go into helping to make decisions for patients that I can't necessarily reason through. And you have ethical decisions as well that come up.   Ralph LugoAnd I again, may not be able to help with that. I, we have to recognize that AI is trained on a data base that exists in the past. And so there may be some ethical situations that come up which are contemporary, which are not necessarily in the training data base that one needs to think through critically in order to come up with an answer to best fit that patient.   Ralph LugoIt's kind of like evidence based medicine in a way. We can have all of the objective clinical trial data on a drug. We can say very clearly, this is the most efficacious drug for this disease. State, but if Mrs. Jones is not going to take it, or if it's too expensive for Mrs. Jones, or if there's three other reasons why it's not going to work and Mrs. Jones, then it may not be the best drug for Mrs. Jones, even though it has the most compelling data.   Ralph LugoSo it's the same with I may gave you some very good objective information, but it needs to be contextualized so that you can determine what is best for this patient. That requires empathy, human reason, human judgment, contextualization and AI at this point doesn't do all of those things. Yeah.   Ralph LugoYou know, I might I might mention another thing. And I know Doctor Williams, this kind of resonates with you with regard to professional identity formation. I know that's an area of interest for you. But, you know, one of the things as we're trying to develop professionals here at the Gatton College of Pharmacy is we want students to be able to wrestle with difficult questions and sometimes failure, sometimes critique, sometimes not having the right answer, sometimes struggling and being corrected helps with that professional identity formation so that it helps them become a better professional.   Ralph LugoAnd, you know, I can think we were just having a conversation just recently, another faculty member and I, about some of the students in the past that may have had some academic or behavioral challenges, shall we say. And I'm talking about the distant past. And I think in some cases, some of these some students may be young. They may they may not have that full maturity.   Ralph LugoCertainly they're not fully matured professionally, that professional identity formation. But they've they went through a process that helped to correct them, to guide them, to corral them and shepherd them. And in that process, they came out on the other end and have created wonderful careers for themselves through that process. And sometimes a few hard knocks along the way will help people correct course, correct along the way, and help them become more successful.   Ralph LugoSo that's, you know, it's not always about having the right answer. That's true. And having all your eyes dotted and t's crossed, which I tends to do. Right. Great answer. I now let's put it in the context of training pharmacy students.   Michele WilliamsI agree, I agree.   Stephen WoodwardIt's got to be pretty satisfying to see a student from a long time ago struggle, but then come out on the other side and then go on to in a career.   Ralph LugoYeah. Very much succeed. Right. Yeah. And and you don't appreciate it or recognize it immediately until years down the road and you kind of look back and you say, wow, this person's really made a name for herself or himself. And and it's not always about making a name for yourself, but that making a name for yourself is usually because you're a great pharmacist and you take care of patients in a in a great way.   Ralph LugoAnd, you do all the things necessary to be a wonderful practitioner. And so that's really what it's about, whether you make a name for yourself or not. Yeah.   Stephen WoodwardWell, so you talked about you came to Gatton, I think you were hired in 2005, which was at the time of the founding 20 years ago. We're celebrating our 20th anniversary this academic year. Talk about the importance of our 20th anniversary here at Gatton, how far you've seen us come and where you think we're going in the future.   Ralph LugoYeah, that's a that's a great question. 20 years is a great milestone. So it's 25 and we'll probably have, you know, even a bigger celebration at 25. But it sort of represents similar milestones in some respects. And what I mean by that is that many of our founding faculty are still here, and we can look back at the early days and we can appreciate the struggles, and we can appreciate the challenges, and we can appreciate where we have come from and what we have built over the years.   Ralph LugoSo in many respects, 20 years, 25 years represents as somewhat of an inflection point where you have enough people here that were here in the beginning that recognize that the first 20 years was like maybe chapter one, or maybe it's, you know, maybe it's one with various sub chapters, but really it's it was when we started, it was we were getting things off the ground, and we achieved a number of wonderful things in those first 20 years in not only accreditation and re accreditation, of course, but we also achieved great academic, achievements nationally.   Ralph LugoYou know, winning a CCP clinical Challenge award twice, community service awards at the national level. Our operation study is an award winner. Now I think it's 12 years in a row, either national or regional. And it's just it's just amazing to think that a new school would achieve that level of national recognition and, national prowess, in the first two decades.   Ralph LugoI think as we look forward, not only oh and I'll, I'll mention one more thing about those first 20 years is that we grounded ourselves in an amazing and outstanding culture. And that's where Gatton really shines in many respects. There are a lot of good schools academically. There are a lot of good schools that do community service.   Ralph LugoWhen I tell applicants that that, applied to Gatton is you can get a pharm.d from many places where academically you're going to get a great education. What you're going to get here at Gatton is a great education, where you also have high impact opportunities and a wonderful culture, a community focused culture, a student centric culture with relatively small class sizes compared to many other schools, where you're going to know your professors and they're going to know you, and you're going to develop lifelong relationships with your colleagues, that doesn't always happen in all schools.   Ralph LugoAnd so in the beginning, that was our aspiration to create that culture. That was the vision of Larry Calhoun, our founding dean. And he did that very well. And he articulated that to the faculty and the students and to the leadership team. And we just have propagated that forward over the last 20 years. And now, of course, Dean Debbie Byrd is in place for the last ten years.   Ralph LugoAnd she of course, that's what she's about as well. So it was like we didn't even misstep when we changed deans. And so it's been this continuous progress of developing this amazing culture. Great place to work, great place to learn, student centric, people come first, you know, all bathed in academic excellence and, and community and student service.   Ralph LugoRight. So that's a great three legged stool, right? Service. Community service, academic excellence and culture. Now in the next 20 years, we're going to have people retire. We're going to have people that maybe weren't here in the beginning. So there's going to be a little bit of a different flavor. But I'm fully anticipating that the culture is here to stay because we have foundationally set it in concrete and then the concrete is dry.   Ralph LugoSo I don't think it's going anywhere. And, you know, in the first three years or five years, maybe the concrete hadn't dried yet, but but now I think the concrete is dry. Everybody carries this culture, you know, inside of them. It's part of the fabric of who the faculty and students are. We talk about it a lot. We cultivated and and so I don't think it's going to change in the next 15, 20 years.   Ralph LugoSo that's going to continue. But now we've added some other things, you know, now we're we're working on streamlining our curriculum to become the most relevant, essential curriculum for training pharmacists. So that's what we just recently did in our curricular revision. And and also we're looking out towards our research and trying to improve our scholarship and our productivity from a research perspective so that we can become better known for our scholarly output and our research productivity, especially in the context of Etsu use research strategic plan and their, desire to improve scholarship as headed up by Nick Haggar.   Ralph LugoMeyer, who's also one of us, here at the College of Pharmacy. So I think as we project out, it's a little bit of an inflection point. Just to summarize a little bit of an inflection point. And over the next 10 to 20 years, you're going to see people are not going to remember the beginning anymore. But I think we've wound this thing up sufficiently that there's enough momentum keeping it moving forward in the ways that are important, these high impact ways that it's not going to turn around anytime soon.   Ralph LugoAnd we can just build on our successes and make it even a better place next decade, next two decades. Good to great is kind of our motto.   Stephen WoodwardI love what you said about culture. I feel like, I mean, I've been here almost seven years. I don't think I realized how important culture is for just organizations in general. But hearing you articulated, kind of experiencing it here from a newer, newish organization like it's super important as the foundation and just helps lay the groundwork for everything else that is laid upon it as a like a good, solid structure.   Ralph LugoYou know, I think that's the reason why we've been so successful in, attracting students. I mean, every, every year we sit down with the PS1 students. The dean has a lunch with subgroups of the P-1 class, 8 to 10 at a time. And we ask them why they came here and what are the things that attracted them about Gatton College of Pharmacy?   Ralph LugoAnd everybody talks about there are a number of things that attracted them. Of course, geographic location is always important, and there's a number of things that are important. But the culture and the receptivity and the warmth. Yeah. On their interview day is somewhat unmatched by other places. And so they felt at home here immediately, and that that's what attracts them.   Ralph LugoAlso, I think that's what keeps people here, both staff and faculty. Is that it? For that reason, it's a good place to work. You don't you don't have the, some of the, problems that other universities have with, disgruntled employees and backstabbing and competitiveness, and it just doesn't exist here. So it's just from that standpoint is just a wonderful place to work.   Ralph LugoAnd I think we probably after a while, we probably take that for granted. And, you know, if you went to another school someplace else, you might say, oh, I think things a little bit differently. Yeah. So, you know, I've been to a number of schools around the country, and, things are different here again.   Michele WilliamsYeah. And I, I think that culture is very intentional. That's not, it it doesn't just accidentally work like.   Ralph LugoYeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it is definitely something you have to work at. It's got to it has to be something that's articulated from the leaders of the college initially. And, and it needs to be reinforced regularly. And it needs to not just be said you actually need to live the words walk the walk talk the talk.   Ralph LugoYou know, do all of those sayings. Right. And, and eventually people start to embrace it and it becomes clear when somebody is operating outside of those cultural boundaries. And I think there is just this natural pressure towards in a good way towards this is how we are. I get, you know, this is the Gatton way. You know, people have said that before, right, that this is not the Gatton way or this is the other way.   Ralph LugoSo it helps us and everybody knows what that means. You know, and probably I would say the students know what that means too. So it's something that that is cultivated, something that is repeated. And we even talk about it in our strategic plan, you know, in terms of environment. Yeah.   Michele WilliamsThis has been such an interesting and sort of far reaching conversation. I've enjoyed every minute of it. Are there any other things that that you would like to talk about or that we haven't asked you about?   Ralph LugoWell, you know, I think something just came to mind, that I think may be worth discussing and that's wellbeing and something that Gatton is all about to, and that's somewhat unique among colleges is we pay a lot of attention to the well-being of our students, the well-being of our faculty and staff. We're doing a survey this year for our staff, for wellbeing faculty and staff, for wellbeing.   Ralph LugoAnd of course, we surveyed the students and we have for a number of years now. So we're able to track their well-being in all of the domains that Gallup would promote. And we track that over time, and we can see where students will drop in their wellbeing scores. And that's a great time for us as a college to intervene and try to promote wellbeing during that time.   Ralph LugoSo, with that as a background or a backdrop, I, the faculty advisor, one of the faculty advisors on the wellbeing Student Wellbeing committee. And one of the things that I'm working on with the research subcommittee of the Student Wellbeing Committee, that's a lot of work.   Stephen WoodwardThat and also loves its committees.   Ralph LugoYes. That's right. Yeah. Great committees. So that's the research subcommittee. We're working on ways that we can take the current research dealing with wellbeing and wellness and lifestyle medicine. As I mentioned earlier, this all fits together right. And yeah. And and draw on the research that is coming out relative to nutrition, relative to physical activity, relative to stress reduction, relative to social connection and, and encourage our students to promote their wellbeing through being aware of the research, adopting the research habits and patterns that are being developed.   Ralph LugoSo for example, we're just we're working on our first push out. I think that's a word. We're working on pushing out our first, I'll call it publication. Our first, information from this student wellbeing subcommittee, research subcommittee. And we're trying to do it in ways where students will appreciate the the presentation. So we're thinking about maybe infographics.   Ralph LugoWe're thinking about a short podcast of maybe, like 5 or 6 minutes with some graphics of a video podcast. We're thinking about a short written document. So just ways that we can encourage students to adopt some of the, contemporary research findings relative to wellbeing. And, and then at the same time, they learn about this to help their patients in the future.   Ralph LugoSo it's not just about them, it's about helping their patients as well. So we're going to be coming out with our first, stuff publication, here in the next few weeks. I had a meeting with them this week, and we've prepared some materials. Which I would actually meant to bring down so you all can look at it and see it.   Ralph LugoI'd love to share that with you and get your thoughts on it before it gets pushed out. But, yeah, we're we're really excited about this aspect of, the Gatton culture, because that is really part of our culture too, is to try to enhance wellbeing.   Stephen WoodwardYeah. That's great. Thanks for sharing. I think that's a wrap. Thank you for being here. I appreciate your time.   Ralph LugoThank you for this podcast. And this podcast has been amazingly successful. So, kudos to both of you. And in creating this and keeping it going. And I think it does a great service to our students and faculty and staff, our community, and even across the country.   Stephen WoodwardSo we appreciate it. Thank you very much.   Michele WilliamsThank you. All right.   Stephen WoodwardI'll get it off. Thanks. Awesome. Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave this review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsy.com, slash pharmacy or follow us on social media at Etsy Pharmacy. We'll see you next time.  

Episode 27 — Maddie Stacey, Early Admission Pathway student

In this episode we chat with first-year student pharmacist Maddie Stacey, who found confidence — and a community — through ETSU Gatton College of Pharmacy’s Early Admission Pathway. A native of Kingsport, Stacey learned about the college’s EAP program while in high school. For her, the program has made the adjustment to pharmacy school much easier. 
Open to high school seniors and first-year ETSU students, the Early Admission Pathway enables students to earn both a Bachelor of Science and a Doctor of Pharmacy degree in just six years. EAP students also join the college’s Pre-Pharmacy Student Organization, designed to introduce them to different specialties in pharmacy and to foster connections with their classmates. Learn more at www.etsu.edu/RxEarlyAdmit.
 
Transcript
Teaser Introduction
Maddie StaceyI think some of the things that the early admissions pathway has made me as a student as confident. I would say that the transition pathway is very smooth. They again, they put everything in line for you. I mean, they give you your schedule, they tell you what you need to do. And so I think that it makes everything much more cohesive.
Main Episode:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. First year student pharmacist Maddie Stacey from Kingsport, Tennessee, sat down for us to talk about her experience going through Gatton's early admission pathway opened high school seniors and first year ETSU students. The early admission pathway enables students to earn both a Bachelor of Science and the Doctor Pharmacy degree in just six years.
Stephen WoodwardThe pathway offers students the assurance of a seat, mentoring, scholarships, research opportunities, and flexible start options for the pharmacy curriculum. For Stacey, the early admission pathway has made the adjustment to pharmacy school much easier and helped her to find confidence and a community. The deadline to apply is March 31st, 2026. Learn more at Etsu Edu slash. Early admit.
Stephen WoodwardLet's hear more about her experience now. Well, hi, Maddie, welcome to White Coat Radio. Start by telling us what got you interested in pursuing pharmacy.
Maddie StaceyI'm interested in pursuing pharmacy because when I was younger, I realized how much one medication could do for one person. Right? And if it can just do so much to change a person's life, to make it more accessible, I want to know everything about how that drug was able to do that for that person. And what else can it do for another person?
Maddie StaceySo I'm really interested in pursuing pharmacy because I want to know how all the drugs can help people be better and function in their lives and be able to enjoy their lives. And so I really love that about pharmacy.
Stephen WoodwardWell, what was it like going through our early admission pathway, which is for high school seniors attending ETSU and ETSU freshmen?
Maddie StaceyI got really interested in pharmacy when I was in high school. And in high school they start to tell you about college options. And when you look at ETSU, you figure out that there are a lot of opportunities. So I was invited to a event for the Honors College and at the Honors College, they have a lot of the other colleges come and set up like Quillen and Gatton.
Maddie StaceyAnd at that event, Becky Dunkelberger was there and she was there representing Gatton. And that's when I first got to figure out that there was a place here in Johnson City, really close to my hometown, Kingsport, that was offering a pharmacy program, which was very exciting. I was excited about that. And she told me there were a lot of opportunities.
Maddie StaceySo the Early Admissions Pathway isn't just, you get here as soon as you can. It's a you create what you want to do. So there was a two years of undergraduate, and then you go in and you can start getting those requirements for your PharmD. Or if you want to get chemistry, biology, health sciences, any of those, you can do three years of undergraduate and then go in.
Maddie StaceyAnd Becky explains all this very well. For me, I chose to go ahead and do the two years, and I also chose to get a Bachelors of Pharmacy studies, which is an option, and I chose to do that. It's just a few more requirements. But again, I never had to worry the school was with me along the way.
Maddie StaceySo when you choose to be an Early Admissions Pathway student, you meet once a semester with either Steve Ellis or Becky, and they're like, okay, here's where you're at. Here's what you need to do. How does that sound? And you either are like, yeah, I can do that. Or, you know, this class is full. I don't think I can take this.
Maddie StaceyAnd they help you every step of the way. If you can't do it, if you can do it. So, it sounds like a lot. Being like, oh, I need to do everything before I come to pharmacy school. But you do it one step at a time. And I love that. About the early admissions pathway. And I would do it again if I, if I was asked, I would definitely do it again.
Maddie StaceyIt's very smooth transition.
Stephen WoodwardTalk about your experience in the pre pharmacy student organization at Etsu. Also known as. So what was that like.
Maddie StaceySo when you decide to become an early admissions pathway student Becky invites you to join pre pharmacy student organization which is so and so this organization works to invite pharmacists from the surrounding areas, from the faculty to come and speak about their specialties, their advice or their disciplines. And pharmacy. And it gives students like a wide range of options to see, oh wait, pharmacy is not just something that happens behind the counter at a Walgreens or a CVS.
Maddie StaceyThere's so much more to pharmacy and that's something I really loved about pre pharmacy student organization. So once you start going it's like once every other Wednesday night. And something great about pre pharmacy student organization is that as an early admissions pathway student it's a requirement. So obviously everybody there is also going to be in your program or a year behind you maybe a year ahead of you.
Maddie StaceyBut you're connected with all of these students that go to Etsu and are going to go with you to that program. So my class is 63 people, and of that 63 going in, I knew about 30 people, which is pretty incredible considering that, you know, they're students from out of state that didn't have that same opportunity. And that's just something that the early admission pathway offers.
Maddie StaceyIf you go to Etsu as well. And I loved getting to do that. And in addition to doing that, our faculty advisor is Doctor Thigpen. He's one of the pediatric pharmacists, and he's a faculty member. So, as president of the club, I got to talk to him a lot and make a relationship with him. And that was really great, because coming here, whenever they matched me up with an advisor, he actually ended up being my advisor to sorry, already had that relationship.
Maddie StaceyAnd that's just like something that just falls into place. Something really great I can say about him is that when I was first starting with the requirements, you have the option of an elective, but my class was one of the first where physiology was a requirement, but, physics wasn't. And so I had a question. I was like, you know, is this still an option for an elective?
Maddie StaceyLike. And it was like getting close to deadline. I was nervous, I was like, what if they just don't let me in because I didn't know there is an elective? And he was really fast to get back to me within, you know, a day he was like, yeah, that's all good. Get inside. That's okay. And it's like, I had that relationship with him.
Maddie StaceyI was able to ask me that question, and I got my answer within a day because I knew him. And I think that connection was really great to have from that club to.
Stephen WoodwardSo what advice would you give someone interested in applying for the early admission pathway? Again?
Maddie StaceySomething that I think is a really big deal. Gatton is not just about having good grades or, you know, making the best grades. I think it's really important that you're going to be somebody that cares about your patients. And I think they care about seeing that in your essays. So I would say the essay portion is a big part of the admissions.
Maddie StaceyAnd I would I would challenge, people who are interested in joining the program to ask themselves, what impact are you making right now, whether that be in an area and shared, say you help with child care. You do volunteering at a certain place. What impact are you making now? And, you know, I would ask, you know, how can you connect that in your essay to say, how does being a pharmacist help you make more of an impact in that area?
Maddie StaceyWhat is being a pharmacist do to make an impact for you? And I think that's important because when you're connecting that, you're really showing how, you're not just interested in it for, you know, maybe the life, but you're interested in it for the way that you're going to impact patients. And getting is very patient centered. And I love that.
Maddie StaceyThat's why I chose, again, they love their patients and they love making people, the best they can be in that area.
Stephen WoodwardSo as you know, getting offers a unique two week bridge program to help students transition into pharmacy school ... What was that experience like?
Maddie StaceyGetting Ready is the first two weeks of your first year of pharmacy school. So in those two weeks you get introduced to all the classes. You will be taking, in the following semester. So you it's a little bit different from what your actual schedule will be like, but it encourages you to think about how you are going to balance and time manage the rest of the semester, which is the most important part that I feel like I got from getting ready.
Maddie StaceyI think that it's nothing more challenging than you have done. I think that they prepare you in everything that is in the first two weeks you can do. It just feels like a lot because it kind of is. Everything is all at once in those first two weeks, and then, you know, after your first week, you have to prepare for your white coat ceremony, too.
Maddie StaceySo it's just a lot of events at first, and I think that can be the most challenging. But as far as the transition, I would say that it got me prepared to think about what materials I wanted to use. You know, pharmacy school, there's a lot of notes, and I thought I was going to come in and do a lot of paper notes.
Maddie StaceyBut after that first two weeks, I was like, you know what? I think I'm actually gonna go digital for the first time. So I think those first two weeks really show you how the rest of your semester can go and what you want to do that works best for you. And I think that's what a lot of my peers would say, too.
Maddie StaceyIt's about learning about how you want your semester go and how you're going to attack your semester. So, you know, I'm really glad that I went digital. It helped me keep up in class. And a lot of people will tell you that, too. When you're just covering so much volume of material, it's faster when you're able to highlight the PowerPoints.
Maddie StaceyAnd addition to that, you get to meet all of those advisors and all of those, professors in the first two weeks, which was really great. They were very helpful. They clearly outline how you can meet with them when you can meet with them. If you have questions where you can get those resources. So I really enjoyed that part.
Maddie StaceyI think trying to think if there's anything else that I could say about, getting ready other than it's, it's not bad. I think I was, I was, I was intimidated, I was really scared. I was like, oh, they're trying to win me out here. This is where if I don't want to do it, they're trying to get me out.
Maddie StaceyBut it's not as scary as it sounds. So that's that's the comforting part.
Stephen WoodwardWhat? So what was the interview day process like for you as an early admission pathway student?
Maddie StaceySo the interview process for me was during Covid. So unfortunately, I wasn't able to come on to campus and get to interview. I had my interview online and it was a set of two separate interviews in the same day. And once you one was with a small group and then one was individual with a mine was with a student instead of a faculty member.
Maddie StaceyAnd it may have just been, Covid. I'm not sure how they do it now. And then once you get accepted, something that is very good about the early admissions pathway is that as long as you're on track, you have a seat reserved at the pharmacy school. So there's no second applications, there's no second essays, there's no second interviews.
Maddie StaceyOnce you're accepted, you have a shot at being here and you have that seat ready for you. When you're ready.
Stephen WoodwardYou know, we hear from a lot of our students, alumni, faculty and staff that the culture and people are just highly valued at the college. How would you describe our culture here as a first year student pharmacist?
Maddie StaceyI absolutely adore our staff so much. I can't tell you how much I adore them. You know, one thing I'd love to highlight as a pharmacy student and coming there are like obviously a million people for you to meet. Add on the professors, add on the the patients. Like there are just so many people for you to meet.
Maddie StaceyI just want to give a shout out to Demers. She did so great. You know, introducing herself, making herself very approachable, you know, tells you about her career and something that I love you do as a pharmacy student. First year, you get to have lunch with the dean, which is so cool. So you have the small group, you come meet with the dean, she asks you these questions and like individually as you, it's not like, oh, I don't know your name.
Maddie StaceyIt's oh, she knows your name. She's already looked at your picture and the book. She knows who you are. How are you doing? Where are you at in this process? And that is so awesome. I don't know if other pharmacy schools do that, but we do here, and that's something I love. And then the one other thing I wanted to comment on was a time I was struggling and an advisor helped me, which was great because they're not even my personal advisor.
Maddie StaceyThey're just the professor of that class and offered to help me. I was really, really scared of vaccines. I was afraid of hurting somebody. I was afraid that I was going to make somebody really like. I was so afraid of hurting somebody, which I think is reasonable when you're starting to learn that. And when I started, after I got certified, the first thing I did when I gave vaccines was I would shake really bad because I was just so afraid of hurting people, you know?
Maddie StaceyAnd it made me really upset. And I felt really disappointed in myself because I couldn't give a vaccine. And instead of, you know, just being quiet about it, letting that go on for four years, I reached I reached out to doctor J. Rob and Doctor Alexander. I was like, hey, I'm struggling, I'm not doing good and I'm okay.
Maddie StaceyAdmit that. Can you help me? And, doctor J. Rob. She was like, hey, come to my office at 8 a.m. and we can talk about it. And I thought we were just gonna be talking about it. And she had brought, syringes, needles. She brought saline, and she's like, we can get better today, and I will let you give me a shot in both my arms.
Maddie StaceyAnd what what other school is going to have professors that offer up their arms? You know, when I say, hey, I'm struggling, I don't know how good I am. She's like, that's okay, you can do it on me. That's that's a pretty big ask. And then on top of that, she said, and down the hall, Doctor Dowling, you can give her two shots.
Maddie StaceyTwo after you give them to me. So she's just offering up everybody's arms. What other school are you going to get that that professors would be brave enough to be confident in me that, you know, I know you're struggling, but I know that you can. You're here because you can. So I think that's a really great, you know, a testament to how great the faculty is that they would be willing to give their arm for me to learn.
Maddie StaceySo I love that.
Stephen WoodwardAll right, well, tell us what you want to do when you graduate.
Maddie StaceySo I think something to remember is, even if you're a first year student, you don't have to make plans as soon as you get here. You don't have to know what you want to do. As soon as you get here. Obviously, you're here because you're interested in pharmacy. In my case, though, I have a vision and I would love to see myself working at a pediatric hospital.
Maddie StaceyI would love to see myself helping that population of patients. So right now, after I finish pharmacy school, I would absolutely love to go on to a residency that has a PGY1 and a PGY2, which, is focused in pediatrics. But something that I would really love is to be close to home. So the one that I'm looking at that I'd be very interested in is wake Forest.
Maddie StaceyThey have a pharmacy general, your first one, which means, you get to see all the disciplines within pharmacy and they have, I mean, a lot of different patients. I see a lot of different cases. And I think that would be a great learning opportunity. And, if I could get there my first year, I would love to apply to their pediatric program, which will be intensive.
Maddie StaceyAnd that population of patients, how you work with them in those different areas. And I would absolutely love to continue to learn that. I love helping, children. And it's a lot of different dosing. They're not just little humans. They are they have different metabolism, different things they need. And I would love to learn more about that.
Maddie StaceySo that's where I would love to see myself after Gatton.
Stephen WoodwardWas, you know, getting offers. A lot of student organizations and leadership opportunities. Tell us about what you're involved in and why that's important for students here.
Maddie StaceyOkay, I'm in a few clubs and organizations here at Gatton. I am in the Pediatrics Pharmacy Association club, and what they do is they meet once a month and they go over some pharmacists or patient cases that pharmacists look at in their day, and they talk about how there's a range of cases and then you have volunteering opportunities in that club.
Maddie StaceyAnd then I'm also in a residency based club. And what they do is they bring in, pharmacists that have either been through residency or, or who are very specialized in residency and, can help you a lot with looking at that. And that's a really great club to be in. I think if you are interested in residency, because it tells you early on what to expect, how can you make yourself competitive?
Maddie StaceyAnd that one also meets about once a month. And the best part about clubs at Gatton is you have a free period. Usually in your day it's, lunch and then they call it common time. And most of the clubs meet during that day, so you don't have to commit extra time outside of school because it's within schools within those hours.
Maddie StaceySo you have extra time to still work and, you know, have your work life balance. And that's something I think is really great about the clubs that you don't get an undergraduate. I would love to be a student ambassador. And that comes out at the end of the semester. You get to start to apply for those things, and it just gives you more opportunities to represent Gatton and get to look into the types of students that want to apply and get to talk to them and just encourage them about what's going on here.
Stephen WoodwardWhat impact do you think the early admission pathway had on you as you transition to Gatton? Now that you're going through your first semester?
Maddie StaceyYeah, I think some of the things that the early admissions pathway has made me as a student as confident, I would say that the transition pathway is very smooth. They again, they put everything in line for you. I mean, they give you your schedule, they tell you what you need to do. And so I think that it makes everything much more cohesive.
Maddie StaceyWhereas if I was applying and for years I would be getting everything together myself, I would be applying to multiple things. I would be looking for all of these things. But the early missions pathway gives you everything in one place, and I think that's something really great. And that's something that has made me confident now, because again, I know those people coming in and I met a lot of advisors coming in and I know who to ask if I have questions.
Maddie StaceyI think that's something the programs offered me.
Stephen WoodwardSo of course, Gannon's mission is to train pharmacists who help serve rural and underserved patients. Service is really important here at the college. Talk about why that's important to you.
Maddie StaceyYeah. Something great about Gatton is how it aligns with what I want to do, whether that's in my values and morals. And I think that the college has done a great job. So something that we often talk about at Gatton is how important it is that we give back to our community, whether that's in the rural and underserved area or any of those areas around that we can do.
Maddie StaceyAnd I think the school has really supported me and the ability to do that because they're consistent and constant volunteering opportunities in our area. And something that I think is really cool. We do, it's in combination. So Gatton and Quillen both work together. And this thing, it used to be called street medicine, but now it is under a different name and it helps to look at the people in our area, look at who is not getting enough healthcare, how can we help them?
Maddie StaceyHow can we bridge the gap and make sure that they're getting what they need? And, something great about Gatton again is that we're always considering those factors. So something they often tell you is, someone may need their insulin, but do they have a place to keep it? And, you know, we never want to make that patient feel bad just because they can't keep their insulin somewhere.
Maddie StaceyAnd I love considering those things. I think it's so important that it's not just about helping people, but how can we make sure that the people were helping can stay healthy?
Stephen WoodwardWell, Maddie, we're really thankful that you would be part of this interview and be part of some of the publicity that we're rolling out as part of showcasing the early admission pathway and helping to educate students, in high school and at Etsu, about this pathway, as well as our other flexible admissions pathways. Can you kind of talk about your passion for Gatton, Etsu, and the early admission pathway?
Stephen WoodwardWhat is it about the university in the college that makes you just want to encourage others to to follow in the same path?
Maddie StaceyThat's a good question. I think something that Gatton does for me that makes me want to support them so much is the reason that they chose to support me. You know, when you apply to schools, you choose them. And it's at that point they have their opportunity to choose you. It's their turn. And you know, when Gatton chose me, they didn't just give me one opportunity.
Maddie StaceyThey have continuously given me opportunities. And you know, I have love how supported I felt here. And if I was to, tell our students about my experience, I'd want to be honest. I'd always be honest, and I don't have anything bad I can say about what they've done for me. You know, even more, I go further to say that if I did have something bad, I could tell them and they'd be like, okay, well, let's think about how we can fix it.
Maddie StaceyI mean, and that's what, lunch with the Dean is like, as I was talking about, she wants to know what's going on. She wants to know how she can help us. And that's why I would constantly and consistently say that Gatton has made this a great experience for me. They will do whatever they can to make sure that I get the best education, and I feel like that's why I talk so well about them, because I want other students to get to experience what I have, and I don't want anybody miss out on that experience because it's really great.
Stephen WoodwardWell, Maddie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave this review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.edu slash pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.  
 

Episode 13 - Meet your Student Success Coordinators

The Student Success Coordinators at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy are dedicated to supporting pharmacy students throughout their academic journey. Whether through connecting students with tutoring, setting up labs, or offering general support to students and faculty, the coordinators play a crucial role in fostering a positive and successful experience for all of pharmacy students. Hear from Justin White (P1 Coordinator), Kerstin Kromker (P2 Coordinator), and Lindsey Feltman (P3 Coordinator) in this episode.
 
Transcript:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode will cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience and study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. We're your hosts. I'm Doctor Michele Williams, director of academic success.
Dan VanzantAnd I'm Dan Vanzant, instructional design and IT manager. In this episode, we'll be talking with our new Student Success Coordinators at Gatton. These are brand new positions that the college has added to support faculty and students in the P1, P2, and P3 years.
Michele WilliamsYeah, we're really happy that you're here. And because this is such a new position again, we've gotten a lot of questions from faculty and staff, students. I'm sure you've heard some of these questions about what the student success coordinators do. So I'd like to take a minute just to kind of give a general overview of the job. And if you want to know more, there's going to be more information on Gatton’s Pharmacy Student Success page.
You can find pictures of Justin, Kirsten, and Lindsey and list their responsibilities. Student Success Coordinators help faculty with things like grading and skills labs and the SIM lab experiences. They help with the space. They also help with things related to exams, and you may see them proctoring occasionally. They also can help students with information and resources. And beginning next year, they're going to start maintaining the class calendar of important events, which will be really helpful.
And you'll be seeing them during that. And really, they help identify needs of students. So if you're a student and there's something that you have a question about or that you would like the administration to know a little bit about, you can let your student leadership know or talk directly to the student success coordinators, and that'll make its way up to the decision makers.
Dan VanzantSo let's take a few minutes for each of you to introduce yourselves and tell us what professional year you are working with. And tell us a little bit about your backgrounds and what interested you in working with pharmacy students.
Justin WhiteWell, he's looking at you, Kirsten, so I feel like you should.
Michele WilliamsThank you. That's what we were going to go by. Yeah.
Justin WhiteWell, that would make sense. Well, my name is Justin White, and I am the Student Success Coordinator for the P1 students for the first year. And yeah, I've been on—what—since October. I guess it's been about six months now. And yeah, what was the question?
Dan VanzantOh, just an introduction, which you just did, and then a little bit about your background and what interested you in working with pharmacy students.
Justin WhiteYeah. Well, my background is a lot different than this. My background is actually more in public history. I majored in history as an undergrad and worked in several museums and historic sites in the area. I worked at the Reece Museum over on ETSU main campus. I most notably worked for Rocky Mount State Historic Site in Piney Flats for several years before COVID, and then moved over to the College of Nursing at ETSU.
And then moved over here about six months ago. So yeah, I just—I really—I'm working on my master's right now. My passion is working with students. I want to work with students. And this job I feel like is a great opportunity to not only do that, but to make the role what I want it to be, because these are brand new positions that we're kind of—Doctor Williams used the term one time that I really like—building the road as we're walking it, and I like that.
I like that we are—because we can ask, “What are student success coordinators doing? What is your day‑to‑day?” And the answer is: we're figuring that out really every day. So it's helping faculty, it's being there for students. And you know, that's what I really wanted was more of a one‑on‑one role where I would get to work directly with students, which is not something I was getting in my previous positions.
Obviously not something I was doing a lot working in the public history sector. So awesome.
Dan VanzantRight? But we—the—our P2 Student Success Coordinator.
KirstenSo I'm Kirsten. I work with the P2s. Background‑wise, my degrees are in translation. So I have a double major in German and Spanish translation. And I used to do a lot of interpreting. So I used to work a lot in hospitals and courthouses. And then, as a translator, most of my stuff actually used to be medical translating as well as military translating.
So kind of familiar with that a little bit more. What drew me to work with the students is probably just because I have a wide range of interests, and I just like to learn more all the time. So I enjoy how much they kind of like—you focus on what they do.
LindseySo I'm Lindsey Feldman. I’m the P3 Student Success Coordinator. I’m the most recent addition, having just been hired in February of ’24. However, I do have a little bit of history with Gatton, starting in 2018 as a secretary in Bishop Hall, and then I transitioned into an Educational Coordinator role, which has some overlap with this new Student Success Coordinator role. I helped in the IDEAL Labs and facilitating all the moving parts with those and just other courses in the curriculum.
So I stepped away to be a new mom in 2021, and when I found out that there was a new position that was more student‑focused, I was very excited to see that. And because my background is working with students—I was a high school English teacher—this role is actually a really good fit because I still get to work with students, do the things that I love to do in working with students and helping them succeed.
Without the constantly‑in‑front‑of‑people component. You know—downtime. Yeah, yeah, it helps a lot. So yeah.
Dan VanzantYeah, that's good. Well, now that we have that out of the way, we have some pressing questions and we have a speed round of questions. So I'm going to go around the room, I'm going to call your name, and ask you a question. And I expect you to respond as quickly as possible. So I'm going to start—let’s start with P3—with Lindsey. So first question: Is a hot dog a sandwich?
LindseyNo, it's not.
Dan VanzantOh, that was quick.
LindseyThe bun—oh, next slide please.
Dan VanzantNo, no, please go on about why it's not a sandwich.
LindseyThe buns are on top and bottom, but on a hot dog it's the opposite—it’s on the sides.
Dan VanzantWould anybody else like to weigh in?
Justin WhiteI mean, I agree. I agree. I mean yes, it's meat between two pieces of bread, but that's where the similarities end. A hot dog’s a hot dog and a sandwich is a sandwich.
Dan VanzantIt's meat with toppings sandwiched between two pieces of bread.
KirstenSee, I'm going to agree with them. I don't think it is. I think it's a hot dog. I think that it has condiments. I don't think there’s anything else too much more involved.
Justin WhiteI can't imagine putting ketchup, mustard, chili on a sandwich. What kind of sandwich has—oh—I mean, a hamburger is a burger.
KirstenRight? And I can't imagine adding like cheese and tomatoes and—I don't know what else—to my hot dog. It's just weird.
Dan VanzantYou ever had a barbecue sandwich with coleslaw on it?
Justin WhiteI don’t like coleslaw.
Michele WilliamsI think it's the hinge. There's a—
Justin WhiteI agree. It's the hinge. The bun is one piece of bread that swings like a door.
Michele WilliamsYes.
Justin WhiteIt's not two pieces of bread.
Michele WilliamsYeah. Okay. Yeah.
Dan VanzantHas anybody had a Five Guys hot dog?
Michele WilliamsNo.
Dan VanzantOkay. So they slice it down—okay, okay. Got it. I wasn't sure. They slice the hot dog down the middle.
Justin WhiteYeah, I was—it was not that long ago. And if I had asked for, like, a Chicago‑style sandwich, I wouldn't have gotten a hot dog. I would have gotten an Italian beef sandwich.
Dan VanzantThat's true. They might not have served you.
Justin WhiteYeah, they probably would have.
Dan VanzantThat's a good point. Chicago dogs are their own thing.
Anyway—moving on. Again, going in reverse order. Kirsten: name five uses of a stapler without staples.
KirstenI can use it as a hammer—that’s one. I can use it to break your window.
Dan VanzantOkay…
KirstenLife‑saving measures… a doorstop… okay, let’s see… weapon?
Justin WhiteI guess I'm going to say weapon.
KirstenYeah, I'm trying to keep it—
Justin WhiteI mean, if you're desperate enough.
KirstenThat's true. I feel like I can use it to reach something—like the last one I need.
Dan VanzantAs an extension. Okay. All right. That’s fine.
Justin WhiteWhere the little staples go in—yeah.
KirstenYes, right.
Dan VanzantOther acceptable answers…
Michele WilliamsSupportive object.
Justin WhiteA paperweight.
Dan VanzantOr if it's a red stapler—a conversation piece.
Michele WilliamsYes. Movie memorabilia.
Justin WhiteThat’s right. Movie memorabilia. If it's a red Swingline.
Dan VanzantAll right. Excellent. Question three. Justin: What is the most recent song that you listened to on repeat?
Justin WhiteOh gosh. Well actually, I've had a song on repeat today. It's recently come out. I don't want to sound too hipster, but I doubt anyone has heard of it. It’s a guy who makes music under the name Nourished By Time, and he has a new EP out, and the first song on that is called Hell of a Ride, and I've listened to that like 20 times today. It’s—
Michele WilliamsYeah?
Justin WhiteIt’s kind of R&B. It's not hip‑hop, but it's—I would say more kind of R&B, kind of synth‑pop, kind of dancey. I'll play it for you.
Dan VanzantOkay, all right. I'm going to give you another chance, Justin. And then we'll go around the room the other direction. If you were a Microsoft Office program, which program would you be?
Justin WhiteMicrosoft Office program… Can I say like, the old Windows PC games that used to come pre‑loaded? Like Chips Challenge and SkiFree and Minesweeper?
Dan VanzantAre those technically Microsoft Office programs?
Justin WhiteNo. I guess those are just Microsoft. An Office program… I mean, it's not Excel because I'm not Excel. Absolutely not. I mean—maybe PowerPoint, because I like to think I’m a little creative, and I feel like you can get the most creative with that. Or with Publisher. Okay—PowerPoint or Publisher.
Dan VanzantKirsten—same question.
KirstenSame question. I have a question for that then… you know the old Draw—like Draw—
Justin WhiteMS Paint?
KirstenYes! MS Paint. There we go.
Justin WhiteAgain, that's not Office though.
KirstenOh darn it. That would be my choice.
Dan VanzantMaybe they incorporated that into the Whiteboard tools.
KirstenYeah. Yeah.
Dan VanzantOkay, all right, we'll accept it.
Michele WilliamsOkay.
Dan VanzantAnd Lindsey, same question.
LindseyYeah, it makes me feel very boring, but Word is probably what I would pick just because I'm an English person. You know—the editor, that sort of thing.
Justin WhiteYeah, when I was doing my history undergrad, I loved Word because of how easy it made creating bibliographies and citations and references. It made it so easy.
Dan VanzantIt's only getting easier. Back in the day you used to be able to turn off spell check, right?
Justin WhiteOh yeah.
Dan VanzantNow it's automatic. You can still—can you? As an English Word person, would you ever turn it off? Maybe for everybody.
Justin WhiteI don't see ever turning it off. As long as I have the option to ignore—like mark this as ignore—I don't see the point in turning it off.
LindseyI would turn off spell check because it's usually—not—I don't usually need it. But the grammar check is wrong sometimes. It is.
Justin WhiteIt is. Oh yeah.
Dan VanzantHave any of you used Grammarly?
Justin WhiteYeah.
KirstenOf course. Yeah. I actually use it a lot when translating because sometimes you just write too directly from one language to the other and I need a different perspective.
Dan VanzantOkay.
KirstenBut I like it.
Dan VanzantLast speed round.
Michele WilliamsYeah.
Justin WhiteThese speed rounds—we are getting through this—it's just mind‑blowing. It's like a NASCAR race.
KirstenAs I said, the sloth is kind of my spirit animal.
Dan VanzantOkay. Last question. Kirsten: Cilantro—yes or no?
KirstenYes.
LindseyYes.
Michele WilliamsYes.
Justin WhiteYes.
Dan VanzantI didn't ask me—I'm going again. I have gone back and forth. Actually, sometimes there are periods in my life where I feel like my taste changed a little. I couldn't eat it—it tasted like rubber soap or something. I think there's some cilantro that's fresher, that's stronger, whereas you can get more mild cilantro.
Justin WhiteI'll even get pico that has cilantro in it and then add some extra cilantro.
Dan VanzantWow. Okay, I'm doubling down on cilantro.
Justin WhiteI'm on board.
Dan VanzantYeah, okay. All right. Excellent. Well, that concludes the speed round.
Michele WilliamsAnd so finally, how can students find you if they have a question or if they'd just like to say hello?
Justin WhiteWell, we're all in the same office, so that makes it super convenient no matter what year you are. We are in Bishop Hall on the first floor, basically on your left as soon as you walk in the building. We are in room 112—the Student Success and Research Coordinator office.
That's where you can find us. Also, you can make an appointment with us on EAB Navigate. We recently got that set up, so hopefully we'll be using that a lot more in the future. Of course you can shoot us an email any time. My email is whitejp@etsu.edu. Feldmanl1…
Kirsten…and schwenkerc@etsu.edu. And you also have the phone.
Justin WhiteWhat is the number to that phone?
Michele Williams439‑6401.
Dan VanzantAll right. Well, thank you all for joining us today. Nice to get to know you guys a little bit more—I think good for the students as well. Thank you. Michele, do you have anything to add?
Michele WilliamsAgain, we're really glad you're here.
Justin WhiteI'm glad we're here too.
Michele WilliamsThank you guys.
Justin WhiteYeah. Thank you.
 
 

Episode 26 - Interview with Steve Ellis

In this episode we chat with Steve Ellis, Assistant Dean of Student Affairs at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. After Gatton was founded in 2005, Ellis played a key role in the college’s early development, officially joining in 2008 to lead the Office of Student Affairs. This office supports students throughout their entire journey—from recruitment efforts starting as early as high school, to current student services, and even alumni engagement after graduation. Ellis also serves on the college’s Executive Committee and has held leadership roles at the university level.
Steve recently celebrated his 30th anniversary working at ETSU and was honored with a special scholarship in his name to support students. You can support this scholarship by visiting our Gatton donor page: Under Designation, select "Write In Your Choice," and type in "Steve Ellis Scholarship."
 
Transcript
Introduction Teaser:
Steve EllisThere's nothing that brings me greater joy than than watching them grow and be successful and know that they're going to go out in the world and and make such a difference, you know, in people's lives.
Full Episode:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. In this episode, we chat with Steve Ellis, assistant dean of student affairs at ETSU Gatton College of Pharmacy. Steve recently celebrated his 30th anniversary working at ETSU and he was honored with a special scholarship in his name to support students. You can learn more about that in the show notes for this episode.
Stephen WoodwardSteve has extensive experience serving students, starting his career at Texas A&M University, his alma mater, and Louisiana State University before coming to ETSU Quillen College of Medicine, where he served as assistant dean for student affairs and director of student support services and outreach programs. After Gatton was founded in 2005, Steve played a key role in the college's early development.
Stephen WoodwardOfficially joining in 2008 to lead the Office of Student Affairs, this office supports students throughout their entire journey, from recruitment efforts starting as early as high school to current student services and even alumni engagement after graduation. Steve also serves on the college's executive committee and has held leadership roles at the university level. Well, Steve, thank you for coming to White Coat Radio.
Stephen WoodwardIt's good to have you.
Steve EllisWell you're welcome. Thank you for the invitation.
Stephen WoodwardSo you recently celebrated 30 years of service at ETSU. So how many years of those have been at Gatton?
Steve EllisWell, I guess it depends exactly how you want to count that. Gatton is celebrating, you know, as many people know, 20 years from its founding in 2005, and I've seen all 20 of those years. However, from an absolutely official capacity, it's 16 that I became the assistant dean for student affairs in 2009.
Steve EllisDuring the years prior to that, I had been at first unofficially involved helping the founding dean, Larry Calhoun, with some things. He, you know, we shared some office space, if you will. So I would help him with some stuff related to student affairs. And then that morphed a little bit into a formal relationship where I was splitting time 50/50, if you will, between the College of Medicine and the College of Pharmacy.
Steve EllisAnd for anybody who thinks that sounds great, 50/50 really is 100/100.
Steve EllisOkay.
Steve EllisSo don’t ever be misled.
Steve EllisWith that…
Steve EllisIdea there. We got about 50% of your time.
Michele WilliamsDon't agree to that. Yeah.
Steve EllisAbsolutely. So, and of course, I've enjoyed all my time here at ETSU, but in particular, I've enjoyed my time here with the College of Pharmacy. Yeah.
Michele WilliamsSo how did you wind up coming to Gatton full time? Not 50/50. Can you tell us a story about that?
Steve EllisSure, sure. You know, I can tell lots of stories, but I'm actually reminded of this story a little bit in terms of how I came to Gatton. Every week on interview days, we interview applicants for pharmacy school on Mondays, and we show them a brief video of our history so they can have some understanding of how we got founded and that sort of thing.
Steve EllisAnd in the video, of course, the founding dean is speaking. And in his little blurb where he talks about the beginning of the college, he says, “Well, the first thing that Ron Franks asked me on that very first day—besides ‘Larry, I hope you can find an office’—is ‘I hope you can do this. Good luck.’” And it always reminds me of how I came to Gatton because that is how Larry and I met.
Steve EllisAt the time, I was the acting student affairs dean for the College of Medicine. And the weekend before Larry Calhoun was to start as the founding dean, Ron Franks and I—Ron was the dean of medicine at the time—were coming back from a meeting and were on the same flight. While we were waiting for our connecting flight, he said, “Hey, Steve. Larry’s going to be starting on Monday, and he doesn’t have an office. You think you can help him?” And it just so happened we had an extra office within student affairs in the College of Medicine at the time.
Steve EllisSo I volunteered that space. And as they say, that was the beginning of a relationship. That’s how I became initially involved with pharmacy, and I continued, as I said a moment ago, in a part-time relationship helping to run admissions in particular at that time because staffing was somewhat limited.
Steve EllisAnd I had a lot of experience with medicine, you know, in the admissions processes. And then when the student affairs dean position opened here in the College of Pharmacy, Larry asked if I would take it on an interim basis. That was in 2008. And then of course that morphed finally in 2009 to be officially the student affairs dean in the College of Pharmacy.
Steve EllisSo, a little bit of a serendipitous type of initial meeting between he and I that has led to what’s become, I guess, a lifelong kind of love affair—in terms of me and the College of Pharmacy. Yeah.
Stephen WoodwardI feel like now, you know, 20 years—we’re celebrating our 20th anniversary now—and, you know, the college has raked in all these awards, we’re nationally recognized and have a great reputation across the country. But there had to be a lot of fear coming in to a brand new school then. I imagine things were a lot different. Can you kind of talk about that and maybe some of the apprehension you might have felt or challenges that were there in the early times?
Steve EllisYeah, absolutely. As you can imagine, there was a lot of fear. I mean, you’re doing things on faith and hope and all of those sorts of things. And I think in particular about our inaugural class of students, but even the first few years of students, because unless you understand the accreditation process, the program does not become fully accredited until you graduate your first class of students.
Steve EllisSo there’s a four-year period of time that in theory everybody’s taking a chance—and especially your students. So I oftentimes thought about what type of apprehension the applicants and those who signed on as students were feeling because we actually had them sign a disclaimer at the time they were being accepted that in effect said, “I understand where the college is in terms of accreditation,” and essentially, “we’re going to do everything we’re supposed to do and fully expect to gain accreditation—but at the same time, this could go south, and you can’t really blame us.”
Steve EllisNot too long ago I came across some of those signed forms, so it brought back memories. And in a way you can think the same thing with all the faculty and staff, you know, many of whom truly uprooted. For me, my uprooting was to cross the sidewalk, but at the same time you were stepping out on faith.
Steve EllisBut it was such an exciting endeavor. The people of this region—those familiar with the history of the college’s founding—were just so, so supportive of the college getting started, not only with money but really with whatever it took. Pharmacists came forward to serve as preceptors, and people volunteered in whatever capacity they could.
Steve EllisSo while you were taking a chance, deep down you knew this was going to work. But when you think about the awards and recognitions, as you mentioned a few moments ago, obviously none of that was in our minds. Our mind was: “Hey, let’s get this college off the ground, make it a quality thing, and produce pharmacists,” because at that time there was a huge shortage nationally and in the region. Basically, we wanted to serve this region and overcome that shortage.
Steve EllisRight. And obviously we did a good job with that over the years. But I think, to your question of what's changed over the years—in many ways nothing has changed in terms of that culture. We've always emphasized the importance of culture here in terms of the workplace.
Steve EllisYou know, that it's a good place to work and a good place for students to learn and have an overall quality experience. But what you were not prepared for—as you grow over the years—is growth. In the early years, we used to comment, “We’re like a rowboat. If you're going in one direction and you realize it isn’t working, you just turn and go in a different direction.” You could do that quickly and meaningfully.
Steve EllisWhereas when you grow—bureaucracy hits and structure and processes develop—it becomes not more challenging necessarily, but a very different process to make changes quickly.
Steve EllisI liken it to an individual who decides to open a business because they love what they do: baking, painting, whatever it may be. But then all of a sudden it becomes a business, and the dynamics change.
Steve EllisBut at the same time, that's exciting because of the growth that's going on and watching things change. And along with that came the awards and excitement associated with those kinds of things.
Steve EllisOne of the biggest memories I’ll always have was the first time our students won the American College of Clinical Pharmacy clinical skills challenge. Streaming was still kind of new at that time. I can vividly see us all huddled around one computer in a cubicle.
Stephen WoodwardI've seen the photo.
Steve EllisYes, yes. And cheering like we were at a baseball game or something. It was really something special. I'll never forget that moment in time for sure.
Michele WilliamsWell that's really so interesting. I didn't know all that about the early days of Gatton. And so your position here at the college—you’re the assistant dean for student affairs and you're a member of the executive committee. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the things you're responsible for?
Michele WilliamsKeeping in mind that we have a time limit, but it's going to take you a huge amount of time to say all the things. I'm just kidding. But maybe talk a little bit about your job and the day-to-day of your job.
Steve EllisYeah, sure. Be glad to share some of that. Student affairs is a big animal because it affects so much with students. Almost anything associated with students that’s not directly academics can fall in that bucket. And sometimes I feel that way—if the word “student” gets used, oftentimes they're like, “Oh, Steve and his staff, you all handle this.” But it's always a wonderful thing because of the students.
Steve EllisA lot of what student affairs does is provide student services and support—just helping them be successful. They have enough to do as students. Going to pharmacy school is their job, and that's a full-time job. So we try to make the other stuff as easy as possible—for example, getting through financial aid processes.
Steve EllisWe try to provide services so they can get the things they need. Financial aid—we do those things in-house. Registrar’s services—course registration—so they're not thinking, “Oh gosh, I forgot to turn in a form.”
Steve EllisWe oversee admissions and recruiting processes, and that has changed a lot over the years. In the early years of the college, there was no shortage of applicants because it was the new kid on the block and nationally there were a lot of opportunities. But things change, the field self-corrects, and the need for recruiting has changed a lot.
Steve EllisSo the admissions staff, student affairs as a whole, and the college collectively spend a lot of time educating people about what pharmacists do as a career.
Steve EllisPharmacy has always been, in my opinion, the invisible profession. Unless you have a need—an interaction with a local pharmacist—many people think of them only as the corner drugstore. They have no idea what pharmacists really do or their role in the health care system.
Steve EllisPharmacists are truly the drug experts. And these are things I've come to learn over the years. I often laugh when watching commercials where they say, “Ask your physician.” And I always think, “No, ask your pharmacist,” because that’s truly the drug expert.
Steve EllisSo we spend a lot of time helping people understand what pharmacists do and using that platform from a recruiting and admission perspective. And I think it's a nice service we provide to the community, not just to get students but to help people navigate the health care system better.
Steve EllisBut to get back to the question: In student affairs—and in my job as the leader of that—we focus on trying to make the student experience as fulfilling as it can be, especially outside the classroom, and to support them when they have struggles. Life doesn’t hit the pause button when you're in school.
Steve EllisSo we try to help ameliorate some of that and really do all we can to help them have a quality experience while they're here.
Michele WilliamsI have to agree with you 100%. And I also want to give a little shout-out to your amazing staff. The people that work in student affairs are really, really student-oriented. You create an environment where people really want to help students, and I’m always surprised at all the things student affairs does to support students.
Steve EllisYeah. Well, I appreciate that. And truly, I think it's a real love for the staff. If you look at the student affairs staff, most of us have been here for a good period of time. I mean, I've been 30 years at ETSU, 20 in fact with the College of Pharmacy.
Steve EllisBut in addition, there's an individual who's been here for 17 years in student affairs, another individual at 17 years. So it's really a nice situation. They are so invested in students’ well-being. And it just makes it nice. And I think our students know that.
Steve EllisThey know they can count on people in student affairs. And we're talking about student affairs because that’s my area, but it's the college. People know they can count on everybody in the college to be in their corner. It’s easy to be in someone’s corner when times are going good.
Steve EllisBut I think the students realize that we’re all in their corner—maybe even more so when times are tough—to help them meet challenges and still be successful.
Stephen WoodwardWell, one thing student affairs is known for—maybe famously or infamously—is Halloween celebrations. And I don't know, this will come out probably after Halloween, but tomorrow we're celebrating Halloween here. Can you talk about your favorite Halloween performances you've…
Stephen Woodward…done in classrooms?
Stephen WoodwardPerformed or spent? Yeah. College dance party.
Steve EllisYeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Steve EllisYou're right. There have been a lot of wild things over the years. All good fun. All good fun, of course.
Steve EllisYeah.
Steve EllisI think my favorite one—and I can't specifically remember the year, but somewhere around 2014—was when we did a performance to a song that was one of those one-hit wonders that came out that year. And the song was “What Does the Fox Say?”
Steve EllisIt was by this Canadian duo—don’t even ask me what their names were. And it was just such a fun thing. We spoofed it up to entertain the students. And of course, as always, I seem to be the guy that either has to make the fun or get made fun of.
Steve EllisSo I was the senior dancer, if you will, for that event. And it was just a really, really fun time. The class had a ball. I had fun. And let me be sure PETA people are not mad at me—I had a faux fox tail I was wearing.
Steve EllisJust, you know… It was just really a fun time. And that whole Halloween celebration that happens every year was one of those things that happened by accident.
Steve EllisIt was like, “Oh, we should just do something for the students.” So we decided to do a costume contest and trick-or-treating, and the student affairs staff dressed up as the Village People.
Steve EllisAnd someone got the idea: “We should go downstairs and see what’s going on with the class.”
Steve EllisAnd we did. And the next thing you know, students start expecting that every year: “What are you all going to do?” So it's just been a lot of great laughs over the years.
Michele WilliamsYeah, it is a lot of fun. Yeah.
Stephen WoodwardI'm curious how you've seen ETSU change in your time here—at the university as a whole. Gatton started as a private college within a public institution. I think it was the only one in the country at that time. It was a very unique situation.
Steve EllisIt was definitely unique. And we were—at least in terms of pharmacy—the only one in the country. So that was unheard of. And I think even here, maybe people surprised themselves.
Steve EllisNot that it became successful, but just the idea. For your state institution, for so many years people had been going to the state appealing to establish a college of pharmacy. In large part because of the history of the medical school being started in the mid‑70s and the impact that had on the overall quality of life in this region.
Steve EllisAnd I think someone said—tongue in cheek—“Why do we have to have the state's money?” Everyone laughed. But then it was like, “Wait… why do we have to have the state's money?”
Steve EllisSo that idea took root. That’s the East Tennessee spirit—don’t tell us we can’t do something. Just watch us.
Steve EllisIt was a big endeavor for the university, though. ETSU was—and still is—a regional school. But maybe even regional in its thinking at that time. “We’re going to be in our designated world and do the things we do.”
Steve EllisBut over time the university—especially under the leadership of the current president for more than a decade—began to think bigger. Yes, we might be regional in founding and history, but we are a world‑class university in terms of the educational experience. We attract students from all over.
Steve EllisThat’s something I've seen change—the mindset of people in the region and at the university. And that’s been a good thing. We’ve attracted students from across the country and internationally. We've enrolled international students in the College of Pharmacy.
Steve EllisWe’ve been able to attract faculty and staff and make a name for ourselves in this little corner of Tennessee—one that has impacted the world. So that’s a big change for me.
Stephen WoodwardYeah, that’s well said. Flash forward from when it started without state funding—of course, a few years ago we received some state funding for the college. And we've also established the early admission pathway program, which has become a huge part of Gatton. Can you tell our audience what the early admission pathway is and why it's important?
Steve EllisAbsolutely. And just to comment on the state support—we do receive some state dollars now. We're not fully private as we were. And it's important—it wasn’t about chasing state dollars because we needed money.
Steve EllisIt was part of our commitment to students—to lower tuition. And we've done that and continue to do that. Pharmacy education, especially in southern/central Appalachia, needs to be accessible. Many students come from rural areas, might be first‑generation students. The idea of becoming a health professional might feel far‑fetched.
Steve EllisSo we want to do all we can, including with tuition. And under the leadership of our current dean, Dr. Byrd, we’ve been able to do some of that and continue forward.
Steve EllisThat also helped feed into the EAP program—the Early Admission Pathway. As we've changed recruiting, we're spending time educating students in high school and even middle school about what pharmacists do and what the pathway looks like.
Steve EllisThrough the EAP program, students are able—as early as high school—to be, air quotes, “admitted” into pharmacy school coming out of high school. It removes the pressure of “I have to make all A’s,” and the feeling that classmates are competitors for a limited number of spots.
Steve EllisIt removes that pressure because they know they have a spot. They still have to perform academically, but because they're in the pathway, we see them from day one as our students, even while completing undergraduate coursework.
Steve EllisAnd we support them—Dr. Williams assists with academics, we help them grow professionally, and we provide some scholarship money.
Steve EllisThe program has grown. The first cohort in 2020 was 12 students—only four ultimately started the PharmD program, which is expected due to attrition and young people making life decisions.
Steve EllisBut our most recent PharmD cohort from the program was 20 students. And the newest incoming EAP cohort of freshmen at ETSU is 50.
Steve EllisSo it has really grown. Students are seeing what the pathway can offer and what a career in pharmacy can offer. We love working with those students.
Stephen WoodwardYeah, it’s been great seeing them at the tailgates this football season.
Steve EllisYeah, it has been. And I think they appreciate that because even though they know, “Hey, I’m in pharmacy school as a freshman,” they still have trepidation. But then to come to a tailgate and the dean is there to welcome them, the faculty are there and know who they are—not just “Hi, who are you?” but “Hi Megan, glad to see you today”—that goes a long way.
Steve EllisAnd our current students talk with them and put an arm around them and see them as part of the group. That helps them feel at home and know we are here to support them fully through the journey.
Michele WilliamsThat's great. Tell us a little bit about the Steve Ellis Scholarship.
Steve EllisWell, the Steve Ellis Scholarship was a real surprise to Steve Ellis. A lot of scholarships are started by someone or a family. But this one—which makes it so special—was created by you all, my colleagues here, in appreciation and recognition of my time at ETSU.
Steve EllisWe’re still working through details, but the scholarship will support students from that overall student‑support perspective. It’s not for the student who makes the best grades but to help students who need support or want to take advantage of certain types of experiences—things aligned with student affairs.
Steve EllisThey're currently emphasizing collecting donations because we want it endowed—not something that’s spent and gone—but something lasting.
Steve EllisI was blown away and surprised when the college presented it to me. I generally try to be even‑keeled, but I was about to cry. I was so moved.
Steve EllisI’m excited to see what the scholarship can do to help students grow and develop as pharmacy students.
Stephen WoodwardYeah. That’s awesome. We'll put a link in the show notes for folks who want to donate and help it reach endowment.
Steve EllisYes, yes. Same type of thing as how the school got started—no amount is too small, and people have a heart for things that directly impact students.
Stephen WoodwardAnd if people want to see the look on Steve's face at the surprise party when the dean presented it, you can go back on social media and find the photos.
Steve EllisYes, absolutely. I was definitely surprised.
Michele WilliamsThat's great. Well, I was really looking forward to this because I knew it would be a fun conversation. And you did not disappoint me. Is there anything we haven’t asked that you wish we had?
Steve EllisNo, I think you asked great questions—some good thought‑provoking ones, and some that brought back great memories. I think perhaps students, faculty, staff, administrators—they don't always know us as people. They see our roles but not us.
Steve EllisI try to help students know I'm just a regular guy like they are. We all have struggles. But truly, I’m going to be here for them—whatever it takes to help them be successful. I want to be in their corner.
Steve EllisThere's nothing that brings me greater joy than watching them grow and be successful and know they're going to go out in the world and make such a difference in people’s lives.
Stephen WoodwardWell said. Okay. Thank you for being on the podcast.
Steve EllisWell thank you. I've enjoyed this opportunity, and hopefully somebody out there might appreciate something we talked about today, and who knows—might make a difference in their life.
Stephen WoodwardWe'll have you back on in your 60‑year.
Steve EllisOkay. Okay.
Steve EllisWell, yeah, you know—I need to stay on because at the celebration you do get gifts the longer you’re here.
Steve EllisYou know, there's that rocking chair that looms out there. But I’ve got to put in a lot more years to get the rocking chair. You get one of those nice… I can say that.
Steve EllisAll right. Well thank you all. I really appreciate this and enjoyed it.
Michele WilliamsIt's great, you know.
Stephen WoodwardThanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.com/pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.
 

Episode 25 - Interview with Dr. Anthony Pudlo, CEO of TPA

In honor of American Pharmacists Month, we sat down with Dr. Anthony Pudlo, Chief Executive Officer of the Tennessee Pharmacists Association (TPA). Dr. Pudlo leads an organization that advances, protects, and promotes high-quality, pharmacist-provided patient care in the state of Tennessee. In this interview he talks about the importance of TPA, the state of the profession, and advice for students. Learn more about TPA on their website, tnpharm.org, or on social media.
Transcript
Introduction Teaser:
Anthony PudloHappy American Pharmacists Month or whatever day you might be listening. It could be Pharmacy Technician Day, Women in Pharmacy Day. There's a lot of great points that we try to celebrate the profession this month. So, thank you to everybody out there listening for what you do each and every day for the profession and the patients you serve.
Full Episode:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we're joined by Doctor Anthony Pudlo, chief executive officer of the Tennessee Pharmacists Association. In this role, he leads an organization that advances, protects and promotes high‑quality pharmacist‑provided patient care in the state of Tennessee. You can learn more about TPA on their website, TNPharm.org or on social media.
Stephen WoodwardWe'll put links in the description. Doctor Pudlo, we appreciate you coming today. Welcome to White Coat Radio.
Anthony PudloThank you so much for having me. Really appreciate being here.
Stephen WoodwardSo talk about what brings you to Gatton this week.
Anthony PudloOh, goodness. When am I not at Gatton, right? No. A lot of the visit this week has really stemmed from an outbound effort from the association to meet and collaborate with our local district pharmacy associations around the state. So actually, later this evening we'll be hosting a great dinner program with our colleagues at the First District Pharmacists Association.
Anthony PudloAnd yeah, anytime you come out to Johnson City, you’ve got to make sure you visit some pharmacies and visit some members, talk to the students. So it has been a jam‑packed week already. I've been enjoying it.
Michele WilliamsIt's really great to have you here. And for some of our students who may not have gotten the message yet, can you talk a little bit about the role of the Tennessee Pharmacists Association?
Anthony PudloYeah, it's a great question. And I do think students should know a few different things. First and foremost, there are a whole lot of different organizations out there, and we encourage people to get involved in as many of them as they want to. But at the state level, the Tennessee Pharmacists Association—plain and simple—we are a membership‑based professional society that represents the practice of pharmacy.
Anthony PudloOur members are pharmacists, pharmacy technicians and students of the profession. Wherever you see them practice—large health‑system practices, small critical‑access hospitals, large national chains, regional chains, independently owned community pharmacies, long‑term care, home infusion, nuclear pharmacy, managed care, academia. And so we bring those voices together. Very uniquely in Tennessee, we're able to be one voice for all those pharmacists and technicians and students to advocate for the profession and help make sure we're promoting the profession in the right way to policymakers and other stakeholders—educating the profession, whether it's formal continuing education or just helping people stay up with the times on what's going on in practice.
Anthony PudloAnd I would also say helping advance the profession as well. So we do that through a lot of different mechanisms. Some of that is really wielded through the work of our foundation. But in the end, our members tell us—tell me—what to do.
Anthony PudloWe're a membership‑based organization, and we stay focused on the state of Tennessee. But as I was saying earlier, we work very closely with all those national pharmacy associations too. We are either direct or indirect affiliates with our colleagues at the American Pharmacists Association, American Society of Health‑System Pharmacists, National Community Pharmacists Association, AMCP, AACP—you go down the list.
Anthony PudloWe work very closely. As many people can imagine, there’s a lot going on in the world of pharmacy, and we try to collaborate and coordinate as best we can across all facets of the industry.
Michele WilliamsThat's wonderful. And what are some of the member benefits for students?
Anthony PudloFor students, for sure—there's a whole lot. And I even think back to my days as a student and what professional involvement means. But plain and simple, I always tell students that depending on what year you're in school, there's different things that TPA probably means to you. Maybe as a first‑year student, you're just trying to learn the acronyms, learn what's going on in the world of pharmacy—and that's fine. That's perfect; you should be.
Anthony PudloSo I tell people we have a weekly communication called our “10 for 10” newsletter that comes out, and we try to spotlight the ten most important things that happened in the world of pharmacy in the last week—some national‑level issues, some state practice issues, whatever it might be.
Anthony PudloAnd plain and simple, as a P1 that’s probably perfect, right? They just want to learn and understand, and these things help augment what they're learning in the classroom. But as they get older in the curriculum—as a P2, P3—I think we offer a whole host of engagement opportunities, whether through our conferences, networking events, or opportunities to meet pharmacists doing unique, cool things in practice.
Anthony PudloWe also have an executive summer internship program. We offer a practice site for fourth‑year students. We offer scholarships through our foundation. And then probably the biggest thing I encourage students on is helping them hone and find their voice for the patients out there—through advocacy.
Anthony PudloWe want to make sure students are attending our Pharmacy Day on the Hill every year at the end of February. Later today I’ll be meeting with some student groups to talk about advocacy efforts and how you find that voice.
Anthony PudloThis week on Friday we host a big residency showcase where residency programs from across the region come to Nashville and students interested in post‑graduate training can meet them—making it easier than having to travel to wherever ASHP Midyear is that year.
Anthony PudloThere’s a little bit of everything. But plain and simple, we are a network—a network of pharmacy professionals to help a student learn the profession and how we operate.
Anthony PudloEven if students don’t plan to practice in Tennessee, I think we're doing some cool, great things in our state. Take that knowledge and apply it wherever you go. And yes—the college would probably love to see alumni come back someday and apply that knowledge here, because it makes us all stronger together.
Michele WilliamsThat's awesome. It sounds like there's something for everybody.
Anthony PudloYeah, very much so.
Stephen WoodwardCan you tell us what the CEO does and give us a day in the life of what you do?
Anthony PudloWell, let's throw this week out the door because it's a little bit unique—but maybe not. In a nutshell, it's important to realize how we operate to know what I do. Like I said earlier, TPA is run by the members. But even more specifically, TPA is still organized in a way—probably one of about 15 or 20 states—that still has a House of Delegates.
Anthony PudloThey are our policymaking body. They meet at our winter and summer conferences. Students can observe or speak. That’s our legislative branch. They decide our stance on medical cannabis, artificial intelligence, telepharmacy—you name it.
Anthony PudloThose statements drive decisions of our board of directors and committees. Our board is essentially our executive branch. They approve our budget and strategic plan.
Anthony PudloThey also employ me. So they hand me the strategic plan and budget, and I figure out how we get the work done.
Anthony PudloI manage our small but mighty team—five full‑time staff, a few part‑time. I manage committees. And I make sure we accomplish what the profession needs from us within budget constraints.
Anthony PudloA big part of my role is legislative work. During session I’d be running around the Capitol a couple days a week working with our contract lobbyists, advocating for the profession, helping legislators understand our pain points.
Anthony PudloEven outside session, I meet with legislative leadership to prepare for the next year.
Anthony PudloYesterday was the end of the month, so I worked with our finance team and auditors on closing the audit. There's a little bit of everything.
Anthony PudloI also spend a lot of time coordinating with counterparts in other states and national organizations—learning from each other, identifying strategies, amplifying messages, troubleshooting issues.
Anthony PudloAny bigger‑level strategic issues—those are on my plate.
Stephen WoodwardOkay. Thank you. So I know today is October 1st—we're recording at the beginning of American Pharmacists Month. We want to ask you: what's the state of the profession of pharmacy, and what is the importance of pharmacists in today's day and age?
Anthony PudloYeah, great question. And thanks for the reminder—it is October 1st. We have a lot we're planning to push out. So yes, to all our listeners—Happy American Pharmacists Month, or whatever day you're listening. It could be Pharmacy Technician Day, Women in Pharmacy Day. We celebrate the profession in many ways this month. Thank you to everyone for what you do.
Anthony PudloBut to your question, Stephen—it's an interesting time. I've been meeting with pharmacists the last couple days. We see a lot of challenges in the profession—undue influence from outside groups. But also opportunities.
Anthony PudloMaybe I'm a glass‑half‑full person. People tell me it feels like the early days of the pandemic—big decisions being made, ripple effects on how we live and care for patients. There's ongoing advocacy work to amplify our voice to decision makers.
Anthony PudloSome decisions may have undertones of things the profession has asked for a long time—proper regulations around influencers on the profession.
Anthony PudloBut finances are challenging. Community pharmacy closures. A big long‑term care group recently filed bankruptcy. Health systems struggling with 340B, reimbursement, etc. There’s a lot of challenge.
Anthony PudloBut pharmacists are problem‑solvers—detectives. We navigate difficult issues. We bring solutions. Tennessee has had success—PBM reform, scope expansion recognizing pharmacists can independently provide care and be paid for it. Not across every payer yet, but opportunities exist.
Anthony PudloThere are challenges, but people are not alone. People are working hard to overcome them. And there’s opportunity when we use our voice together.
Michele WilliamsIt sounds like there are so many important facets to your job. When you think back to pharmacy school, were there experiences that led you to where you are now?
Anthony PudloWe could go down a long path about choosing pharmacy, but in a nutshell—I didn't come from a family of pharmacists. Pharmacy somewhat fell into my lap. My older sister went into physical therapy; I chose pharmacy.
Anthony PudloBecause I didn’t have direct exposure to the profession, I soaked up everything I could. I got involved in different organizations almost every semester—independent ownership, managed care, hospital practice—you name it.
Anthony PudloI wanted to be a sponge, to make the right choice for my career. Looking back, I learned a little of everything. And now, in my role, I see medications as the common thread across all health care.
Anthony PudloThat broad exposure helps me understand what different pharmacists deal with. My job isn't to know everything—but to know who to call.
Anthony PudloI learned early to communicate, understand people's passions and issues, and amplify their needs in the right way. That helps when talking to the Governor’s office, legislative leaders, members of Congress—you need real examples to illustrate why change is needed.
Michele WilliamsThat's amazing. Thank you for sharing that.
Stephen WoodwardYou were reflecting on pharmacy school. Looking back, what advice would you have for a current P1 or someone just starting their career?
Anthony PudloDoesn’t matter if you're a first‑year or fourth‑year—be a sponge. Learn every facet of the profession. The PharmD degree offers so much flexibility. You can work anywhere.
Anthony PudloBut learn your passions. Learn your clinical interests. Yes, you have to be a jack‑of‑all‑trades to pass boards, but also learn what you really care about.
Anthony PudloKnow the clinical areas you love—become the expert. Learn the trials, the guidelines. And also learn your colleagues’ passions. You won’t know everything. You need to know who to call.
Anthony PudloThere’s mutual respect when you know your limits and rely on colleagues. Be a resource to each other. Not only in school, but when you're alumni caring for patients.
Stephen WoodwardGreat. That's great advice.
Anthony PudloThank you.
Michele WilliamsThat's awesome. Are there any other things you'd like to talk about that we haven't touched on yet?
Anthony PudloHow much time do we have? It's important for people to realize—sitting in this chair as CEO of TPA for years now—there are a lot of positive things the association is doing externally that people may or may not see.
Anthony PudloBut there's also a lot internally—revamping communications, new website, new emails, better social media. If you don’t tell your story, others make their own narrative. My leadership has been clear—we need to peel back the curtain and showcase what TPA does.
Anthony PudloWe've revamped advocacy strategies. We've revamped financial processes—being efficient with the membership dollar.
Anthony PudloFor anyone who hasn't considered what TPA is or what it means to you, I encourage you to take a look at our website, www.TNPharm.org.
Anthony PudloI'd appreciate advice, too. I'm still soaking up information—ways we can be better, more relevant to pharmacists and technicians who need our help. There’s more to come. Some exciting things on the horizon.
Michele WilliamsThat's awesome.
Stephen WoodwardWe'll put a link to your website in the episode description, and we hope this episode helps you tell your story and more about TPA. We really appreciate you joining us today.
Anthony PudloThank you both. Really appreciate it. And I guess it’s time to go talk to more students in person.
Stephen WoodwardThat's great. All right, that's a wrap. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.com/pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy.
Stephen WoodwardWe'll see you next time.
 

Episode 24 - Interview with Dr. Jim Thigpen

In this interview with Dr. Jim Thigpen, Associate Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, we discuss his pharmacotherapy course and how to succeed, leadership in pharmacy, and Dr. Thigpen's favorite pastime: fly fishing!
 
Transcript:
Introduction Teaser
Jim ThigpenYou're in too big of a hurry fishing, you're not going to do well. And if you're in too big of a hurry as a pharmacist, you're going to make mistakes. And that's dangerous. And so learning to be patient and taking your time is important.
Main Episode
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we're joined by Doctor Jim Thigpen, associate professor of pharmacy practice, a pediatric pharmacist by trade whose practice site is Ballad Health’s Niswonger Children’s Hospital, which is located right next to the college. Doctor Thigpen has been with the college essentially from the beginning, starting in 2008 after working as a clinical pharmacist for nearly 15 years.
Stephen WoodwardHe is originally from Charleston, South Carolina, and attended Clemson University before going on to pharmacy school at the Medical University of South Carolina. He moved to Johnson City in 1993. Doctor Thigpen coordinates Pharmacy Practice V and Pharmacotherapy III, as well as an Advanced Pediatrics elective course. We hope you enjoy today’s interview.
Michele WilliamsWhat would you like students to know about being successful with your material that you wish they knew—something maybe you don't say out loud in class?
Jim ThigpenDon't be intimidated by it. You know, don't think that it's that different than what you've learned. About 70% of all the children in the U.S. are cared for by pharmacists that are not pediatric specialists. There are 200 children's hospitals in the United States, and I’d ballpark maybe 2,000 pediatric specialists who work in those hospitals.
Jim ThigpenBut here there’s four in East Tennessee. And so the vast majority of children are going to be seen by pharmacists that are not pediatric‑trained. They all have to have some level of comfort taking care of a child and recognizing the bad things—when they need to go to the ER right now, or when it's something they don’t need to worry about at that moment.
Jim ThigpenI hope by being exposed to pediatrics through the program, they develop a comfort level so they can say, “Yes, you need to call your doctor,” or “You need to make an appointment,” or “Yes, you need to go to the emergency room,” or “No, we can treat that with Tylenol.”
Jim ThigpenAnd just develop a level of comfort with children because you will be somebody’s pharmacist, and somebody will call you at 4:00 in the morning and say, “My son has a fever. What should we do?” And you need to know what to do.
Stephen WoodwardWhat are the steps that a student right here at Gatton would need to take in order to become a pediatric pharmacist?
Jim ThigpenYou need to get involved with the national organization. If you're serious about pursuing residency in pediatrics, join pediatric pharmacy groups such as the Pediatric Pharmacy Association. They love students—they welcome them at national meetings. Meet people and figure out if that’s what you want.
Jim ThigpenPediatrics is limited. Tennessee has children’s hospitals in Johnson City, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Memphis. That’s it. You can't be a pediatric pharmacist anywhere—you have to live in a city with a children’s hospital.
Jim ThigpenThirty years ago we were in high demand—and still are—but you may have to move.
Jim ThigpenIf you want to do pediatrics, talk to me and talk to preceptors like Robin Modern. Pharmacy is a small world; pediatrics is even smaller. People know each other. It’s about connections and making a good impression.
Jim ThigpenResidency often means moving. I was going to leave Charleston for a residency at VCU, but we found out we were having a baby, and I didn’t want to take my eight‑months‑pregnant wife to a strange city. That’s the only reason I stayed. I recommend going elsewhere for residency—it’s a good learning opportunity.
Michele WilliamsWe were talking just a minute ago about the pharmacotherapy series. That’s where your course content primarily lives, right? During the P3 year?
Jim ThigpenYes, historically.
Michele WilliamsIf I were a student about to start the spring P3 year, what advice would you give me to be successful with your course content?
Jim ThigpenDon’t worry about it. There are probably only three or four drugs that are exclusive to pediatrics. The rest are used in adults and then used in children. About 25% of drugs are FDA‑approved for children; the rest aren’t, but we still use them.
Jim ThigpenThere are only a handful of drugs you’ll need to learn that you don’t already know.
Jim ThigpenPeople think pediatrics is so different—it’s really not. A lot of diseases are the same; the drugs are the same. It’s just a little different for children.
Jim ThigpenYou need to develop comfort with acute issues in kids—things you need to be able to recognize. I will drill that into you. If someone calls you in the middle of the night about their kid, you need to know what to tell them—and say it in a way that doesn’t terrify them.
Jim ThigpenYou need to talk to parents—help them give medicine effectively, or explain the importance of managing something like type 1 diabetes. You need to communicate clearly.
Jim ThigpenSome parents are afraid of vaccines. You need to understand the facts and communicate them without offending them.
Jim ThigpenOutside of those differences, pediatrics isn’t that different. I highlight the key differences. Don’t be intimidated—but I’ve been doing this for 40 years, so of course I say that.
Stephen WoodwardA few months ago I had the privilege to shadow you in the hospital. I think we often think of pharmacists in the background, but you were in more of a leadership role. Nurses, medical students—they were looking to you for answers. Can you talk about that leadership role?
Jim ThigpenWell, not trying to be funny, but I'm probably older than everybody there. So it's natural to look up to the old man.
Jim ThigpenBut anyone who’s known me would not say I'm the smartest person in the room. They would say that if they needed help, I’d give it. Brian O’Toole and I worked together for years, and we always tried to help people and make their job easier.
Jim ThigpenPeople know I’m someone you can ask without feeling stupid. Medical students especially—they get far less pharmacology than our students do. Some pharmacists make them feel bad for not knowing something. I try very hard not to do that.
Jim ThigpenI want them to understand the details and feel like they can ask me anything. I try to break the ice—ask where they're from, talk about baseball or fishing or Clemson football—so they don’t see me as “the guy in the white coat.”
Jim ThigpenFor all pharmacists: you're part of the team. You develop a reputation. Students, nurses, doctors—they know whether you’re approachable.
Jim ThigpenAlmost every time I take a student into the NICU, one of the doctors walks up and says, “I’m so glad you’re here—I’ve got a question for you.” It's not scripted—it just happens. They know I’ll help.
Jim ThigpenIt’s not leadership; it’s reputation. If you're nice, people want to ask you questions. If you're not, they'll avoid you.
Jim ThigpenDon’t ever treat providers condescendingly. They will avoid you forever. Even if they're really messing up, don’t make them feel like they’re messing up. We’ll teach you those skills.
Jim ThigpenI’ve never thought I was smarter than anybody. I’m usually the dumbest person in the room—but at least I'm willing to help.
Michele WilliamsWere you Mr. O’Toole’s specialty?
Jim ThigpenHe was internal medicine. But he was a special person. If you knew him, you loved him.
Jim ThigpenI better stop before I get emotional.
Stephen WoodwardWell, that’s a great transition to fly fishing.
Jim ThigpenYeah, gives me a chance to clear my throat.
Stephen WoodwardEveryone knows you love fly fishing. What is it about fly fishing that pulls you?
Jim ThigpenI always liked fishing—bluegills and catfish as a kid. I never fly‑fished until I moved to Tennessee. A pharmacist I worked with took me in 1993. First time out, we fished for a while with no luck, and then suddenly the fish went nuts. I caught six in 15 minutes and said, “I’m done, I need to buy a fly rod.” It was magical.
Jim ThigpenFly fishing is technical. It’s rhythmic—like in A River Runs Through It. It’s comforting. And trout live in beautiful places—the Watauga, the South Holston, Beaver Dam Creek. It’s just pretty.
Jim ThigpenThere have been days I've caught more fish than I can count—and days I’ve caught one or two, and felt just as rewarded. Catching fish is gravy.
Michele WilliamsIt sounds like you’d recommend fly fishing. What could a student pharmacist learn from fly fishing that applies to the profession?
Jim ThigpenAttention to detail. That’s important for pharmacists. Fly fishing requires the right size, the right color, matching the insect. You need patience. If you're in too big of a hurry fishing, you won’t do well. If you're in too big a hurry as a pharmacist, you'll make mistakes—and that's dangerous.
Jim ThigpenYou need to pay attention. Sometimes I wasn’t catching anything and realized I wasn’t paying attention to which insects were around. I kept using the wrong fly. Then I switched and suddenly caught fish.
Jim ThigpenAttention to detail and taking your time—both are important as a pharmacist.
Michele WilliamsWhen you talked about matching the fly to the insect, it made me think about pharmacists finding “just the right” answer.
Jim ThigpenYes. In a perfect world you always use the best option—but the world’s not perfect. Sometimes the patient can’t afford the best medicine. You have to figure out what will get the job done. It’s problem-solving.
Jim ThigpenWe want students to develop critical thinking. Same with fishing—you use something similar if you don't have the perfect fly. Sometimes you choose something that isn’t your first choice but fits the situation.
Stephen WoodwardYou should use that with pre‑pharmacy students. Can you talk about advice you give students interested in pharmacy?
Jim ThigpenI've had this conversation hundreds of times. I never sugarcoat the profession. You don’t have to be a chemistry expert. I made two Cs in organic chemistry and was glad to get them. You do need problem‑solving skills.
Jim ThigpenMost importantly, you need to communicate. Patients, parents—you must explain what you're thinking in a way they understand and feel heard.
Jim ThigpenTalk to as many people as you can about the profession. See what you're getting into. Maybe get a job in a pharmacy. There are many paths—you don’t have to work retail. I never did. I worked in hospital pharmacy.
Jim ThigpenBut healthcare carries responsibility. If my son messes up at his job and loses the company half a million dollars, he might get fired—but he didn’t kill anyone. Healthcare is different. The stakes are higher.
Jim ThigpenThe most rewarding parts of my career: seeing parents relax because I'm helping their doctors make good decisions, and seeing students or residents understand something better because of my teaching. Being part of the team for 35 years—that’s rewarding.
Jim ThigpenI enjoy interacting with the doctors, nurses, everyone. We all help each other and support each other when bad things happen.
Stephen WoodwardThat really came across when I shadowed you. It was incredible to watch.
Jim ThigpenExperience helps. I’ve been there a long time. Only one pharmacist at the medical center has been there longer than me. I've been here 32 or 33 years. I don’t know how it happened.
Michele WilliamsIt really comes across—you still have enthusiasm and passion. Students love working with you.
Jim ThigpenI try to have fun along the way. Serious business, but jokes and cutting up with people make difficult days more tolerable. I encourage students to get to know the team—it makes everything more rewarding.
Stephen WoodwardWere you an inaugural faculty member?
Jim ThigpenNot the first group. They started July of ’07. I started March of ’08.
Stephen WoodwardThe college is celebrating its 20th anniversary. Can you talk about how you came to Gatton?
Jim ThigpenI moved to Johnson City in ’93. I’d been doing the same job for almost 15 years and knew I didn’t want to be an administrator. I didn’t have anywhere else to go in that position.
Jim ThigpenLarry Calhoun is the reason I came to Johnson City. I thought it’d be fun to work with him again. Maybe they’d need a pediatric specialist. I had taught some at the College of Nursing and College of Medicine, so I felt comfortable teaching.
Jim ThigpenIt was a transition from full‑time clinical to full‑time academia with clinical work. It wasn’t a big change—but it was a good opportunity. People said, “You just wanted to work with Brian O’Toole again.” That was a bonus.
Jim ThigpenIf the College of Pharmacy hadn’t opened, I’d still be at the med center. I never would have left—because we love living here. Coming to Gatton was probably the second-best decision of my life. The first was moving to Johnson City.
Stephen WoodwardWell, Doctor Thigpen, we really appreciate you coming.
Jim ThigpenCertainly. It’s good to be here.
Michele WilliamsIt’s a great conversation—no surprise at all.
Jim ThigpenEverybody says, “Do you have a story for every drug?” And I say, pretty much. If you've done it long enough, you have an experience for everything.
Michele WilliamsAnd a good story too, I’m sure.
Stephen WoodwardThanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.com/pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.
 

Episode 23 - Interview with Dr. Dowling-McClay about research (Part 2)

Check out Part 2 of our interview with Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay, Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Dr. Dowling-McClay discusses some of the exciting research opportunities for student pharmacists.
 
Transcript
Teaser Introduction:
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThey're better than TV sometimes. Like, I would just go out and spend time just standing around with my chickens and just watching at.
Full Episode:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we are talking to Doctor KariLynn Dowling-McClay, assistant professor of pharmacy practice again. Her interests include women's health, substance use disorders, and public health.
Michele WilliamsWelcome back to White Coat Radio, Doctor Dowling-McClay.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThank you. I'm excited to be back.
Michele WilliamsSo I believe that you might be unique among our faculty members in that you do both quantitative and qualitative research. Can you tell us a little bit about what qualitative research is, and then also about the areas in which you research?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes. So qualitative research is such a fun area, and I didn't honestly think about it much at first when I was going through my training and building out my skills in research. First and foremost, I'm a big data nerd. I really like looking at numbers, working with spreadsheets, doing statistical tests. So qualitative research is everything outside of that.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayAnd so I wasn't naturally drawn to it until I got some exposure to it. That really started when I was doing my postgraduate training. I went through the Master of Public Health program here at ETSU when I first came here as a pharmacy fellow.
Michele WilliamsThat's kind of data nerd paradise.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayIt is. I mean, it gives you all the time you want to really dig into those interests. But what I learned through my mentors and instructors in that program is that you can't form a whole story through research that is just numbers‑driven or quantitative data‑driven. Qualitative is a really important piece of the puzzle.
KariLynn Dowling-McClaySo how I look at research now: it’s numbers and it’s stories. And qualitative is the story side of research. With qualitative, you can do a deep dive into a topic—maybe a challenge that a community or population is having—and you can find things you wouldn’t have found just by crunching numbers.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayAn example: I have an ongoing project investigating pharmacist prescribing of contraceptives—something pharmacists can do in Tennessee and several surrounding states. But in practice, it's not happening much, even though the state authorizes it.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThis is a multi‑pronged research project involving many students over the years. One piece was interviewing community pharmacists to find out what they think about the state law, why they may not participate, and what would help them participate. Generally, they think it's a good idea—but where is the disconnect?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayTo answer that, we needed to talk to the people in the group—community pharmacists. We recruited them, brought them in person or on Zoom, turned on a recorder, asked a bunch of questions, and recorded everything again and again and again.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayQualitative research is rigorous—even though it’s not number‑based. You ask the same questions repeatedly until you keep getting the same answers. That's data saturation. Then you analyze the recordings for common themes.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayBy doing that first, we could then better design a survey for a larger group, diving deeper into the questions. I see qualitative and quantitative research working together for full‑perspective research.
Michele WilliamsThat sounds really interesting.
Stephen WoodwardSo you teach a research elective at the college. What can students expect in that class?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes. I may be biased, but I think it's a lot of fun. They get to do research with me outside the classroom. I offer the Pharmacy Practice Research elective series.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayWhat's unique is that pharmacy practice research is research, but it may be totally different from what students picture. We don’t have a lab or animals or cell lines or fancy equipment. We're out in the community doing research with people and pharmacy systems.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThere’s a lot of human interaction, but also a lot of independent work. I always tell students—as long as they have an internet connection, they can do most of our research from anywhere.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayOnce oriented, we meet every other week, and between meetings they work toward goals to push the project forward. It’s flexible, independent, and hands‑on.
Michele WilliamsI can understand why that's such a popular elective. If a student is interested in doing research with a particular professor who doesn’t teach a research elective, is it still possible to do research with that professor?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayGreat question. Yes—there is more research happening than what shows up in the elective menu. Every faculty member has different duties and different amounts of research time.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI offer a lot because my job is 50% research. But others may only have 5–10% research time, so they might not advertise opportunities.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI always tell students: there’s no harm in asking. And you won’t know unless you ask. Reach out with a professional email, explain your interest and how it aligns with their research, and ask if opportunities exist now or in the future.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYou’re also building rapport. A professor may think of you later when a new project starts.
Michele WilliamsSo that's great advice. If a student does that, can they get any sort of academic credit?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes, absolutely. Students can still register for research elective credit. It’s almost like a hidden option—no guarantees, but when available, students receive credit for the work.
Michele WilliamsOkay, a little inside info there first.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes! It’s like the hidden menu at a coffee shop—you just have to ask.
Michele WilliamsLike the veggie burger at some restaurant. Yes.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayExactly—they don’t advertise it, but it may be available.
Michele WilliamsThat's great. And on a personal note, I happen to know that you're really fond of chickens. Not eating chickens—you don’t want to be eating chickens—but as pets. Can you tell me the story behind your fondness for chickens?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes! Chickens just make me so happy, and I probably talk about them too much. I grew up in a small town in Montana where animals were a big part of life. We had horses, dogs, sheep, goats—lots of animals.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI was fascinated by birds, and some neighbors had chickens. I loved observing them: they all looked different, acted differently, had distinct personalities. I begged for chickens, and my parents made me study, plan, and save for a year before letting me get them.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayWhen I finally did, I was so proud. I raised them through middle and high school, took them to the county fair, did all the chores. Chickens are more entertaining than people realize. They have different intelligence levels—you have smart troublemakers and simple ones who get stuck in corners.
Stephen WoodwardThose would be my favorite.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayHonestly, they're better than TV sometimes. I'd just stand outside watching my chickens—that was my entertainment.
Stephen WoodwardAre they loud? If you live in a small neighborhood, would they cause problems?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThey can. My neighbors have some secret chickens that I think aren't allowed where we live. I personally love it—it makes me feel at home. But yes, chickens are noisy. Not just roosters—they all make lots of noises.
Michele WilliamsHaving a pet bird, I know there's a lot of flapping and screeching.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes—that translates completely to chickens.
Michele WilliamsThat’s how they communicate they are not pleased with something.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes.
Michele WilliamsDoctor Dowling-McClay, thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasure speaking with you and learning more about you.
Stephen WoodwardThanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.edu/pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.
 

Episode 22 - Interview with Dr. Dowling-McClay on professional identity formation

Check out Part 1 of our interview with Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay, Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Dr. Dowling-McClay explains professional identity formation, imposter phenomenon, and the role those play in the lives of student pharmacists. She also shares her own journey to becoming a professional pharmacist. 
Transcript
Introduction Teaser:
KariLynn Dowling-McClayDoing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and a sense of responsibility for the well-being of the community.
Main Episode:Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen WoodwardAnd I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we are talking to Doctor KariLynn Dowling-McClay, assistant professor of pharmacy practice again. Her interests include women's health, substance use disorders, and public health. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Dowling-McClay.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThank you. I'm excited to be here to talk with you all.
Michele WilliamsI've learned so much from you. One of the things that I think is a favorite topic of yours is professional identity. And so I thought maybe we could talk about that a bit today. And just kind of in general, what is professional identity and what role does it play for student pharmacists?
KariLynn Dowling-McClaySure. I think it's a really interesting topic. And you're correct—it's something I've enjoyed bringing into the classroom. And honestly, I'm still learning about it. So every year when I first come to the topic again, I have more to add, I have some new perspectives, so it's one of those fun ones where it just keeps evolving. But it is a concept that really exists for any profession that's out there.
KariLynn Dowling-McClaySo that includes pharmacy, other health professions, and even things outside of health care, like lawyers—really any group that is united by the career they do or something they have in common. And so the process of professional identity formation for student pharmacists is going through this internalization of thinking, acting, and feeling like a pharmacist.
KariLynn Dowling-McClaySo it's really the idea that they start out as a student. They want to become a pharmacist. But what is this process that they go through to actually be a pharmacist by the time that they graduate and go out into their career? And so I think for a lot of students—and it would be myself included when I went to pharmacy school—I knew I was going through this four‑year curriculum, working really hard, but I kind of felt like I was just a student. And then at graduation or the day after, I would be a pharmacist, like I was just flipping a switch.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayWhich is, yes, flipping a switch—but actually there’s evidence that shows it’s a continual process that really starts from the moment someone is welcomed into a profession.
Michele WilliamsWow.
KariLynn Dowling-McClaySo yes—and it could even be earlier for students who have worked in pharmacy environments or had exposure before school. It may start at different times for different students, but definitely by the time they come here for orientation, they're all on that journey together. And like I said, it’s an internalizing process.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayEverything they're doing is contributing to how they will use thought processes to solve problems like a pharmacist. It's their sense of belonging—feeling like they're a member of the profession. In recent years, we’ve tried to bring that to the forefront to help students be aware this process is happening. That awareness can also help in times they might struggle with belonging or feel discouraged.
Michele WilliamsThat makes so much sense. And I imagine there are times when a person really starts to feel like a pharmacist or really feels like they're thinking like a pharmacist—and then times when they don’t feel like that, or feel like they’re pretending to be a pharmacist… like imposter phenomenon.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes, yes. And unfortunately, I think that is a pretty universal experience. It will hit at different times for every person going through this process. But part of that process is going through those feelings of doubt and coming out the other side and realizing that you do belong in that profession—that you actually are a member of that profession and you're not just portraying that.
Michele WilliamsNot fooling people.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayRight. You actually are. And this has been studied some in pharmacy and a whole lot in medicine and nursing. The scientific field is still learning more about it, but it seems to be a common experience or a common way of understanding how students reach that endpoint of being a member of the profession.
Michele WilliamsYeah, it's good that that's being studied now, because I'm guessing that for a long time people thought they were the only one who felt like they were pulling something off.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYes. Those feelings of imposter phenomenon or feeling like you don’t belong can lead to a lot of doubt—and it can be very isolating. Something we try to do in the program is help students realize they’re not alone when they struggle with those feelings. Guaranteed, there are other people in the room who are or have or will feel the same way.
Stephen WoodwardThat's really interesting. So what got you interested in that topic to begin with?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayHonestly, it wasn’t something I had ever heard about as a pharmacy student. Looking back, I know I went through the process, but I didn’t know there was a term for it or that it was a formal concept. It really wasn’t until I became a faculty member and started interacting not just with pharmacists but with educators.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThrough pharmacy education conferences I started hearing these buzzwords—PIF, professional identity formation. Once I heard it again and again, I felt like, okay, there must be something here I need to know about.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI dug into it, went to talks, looked up resources. The more I read, the more it clicked that it is something always happening for our students, whether we acknowledge it or not.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI like to lift the hood on the car for students—not keep everything behind the scenes. So just like we talk about educational outcomes, I like to talk about PIF and help students acknowledge the process while they’re experiencing it.
Stephen WoodwardWhat do you think causes that imposter syndrome for health care professionals?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI think part of it is a disconnect. When you're brand new to something, you don't know what you don't know. Then as you gain more experience, you learn some things—but you also become aware of all the things you haven’t mastered yet.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayWhen there's that imbalance, it weaves into imposter feelings. People think, “I can’t think like this, I can’t solve these problems,” when really they’re just learning. That’s part of becoming the professional—they’re still growing toward that endpoint.
Michele WilliamsDo you think comparing themselves to others fosters that feeling? Thinking someone else knows all the answers, or their parents are pharmacists, or they’ve worked in a pharmacy for five years… What am I doing here?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI think that's actually a huge part of it. Our society and educational system prime young people to measure themselves against others constantly. Many things students must do to get into pharmacy school involve measuring up.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayYou can’t just turn that off. You have to reframe how you see yourself, and not always be in competitive mode.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayAnd students are surrounded by people they want to emulate—faculty, preceptors. They’re fully developed pharmacists. But students may not realize those role models had steppingstones too. They struggled in school too.
Michele WilliamsThat's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. In addition to the PD course that you and I co-coordinate, what are some of the other courses in which you teach?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI think I have a really fun job because I get to pop up in some unexpected places throughout the curriculum. I love working with P1s in the PD series. But I also get to teach women’s health topics—early on in self-care in P1 spring, and later in pharmacotherapy.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI usually work with groups in the communications course or the APP program. And I take fourth-year students on an academia rotation. They spend a month with me at the college—not as students, but seeing behind the curtain how we do our jobs as educators.
Michele WilliamsThat's great.
Stephen WoodwardRecently you spoke to incoming P1 students and asked them to reflect on the question, “Why are you here?” What is the why that led you to become a pharmacist?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayThis is a fun exercise. I wish someone had advised me to do this when I started pharmacy school. Honestly, maybe someone did—I just didn’t listen.
KariLynn Dowling-McClaySometimes it's hard to put into exact words, which is why writing it down helps. For me, my “why” comes from a deep sense of caring for the community and wanting to find my role in making the community as healthy as possible.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayBefore this conversation, I pulled out my pharmacy school application essay. I wanted to see what I wrote back then. To my relief, I used very similar terminology.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayAt the time, I had started working in a community pharmacy to make sure that’s what I wanted to do. I wrote about how doing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and felt a responsibility for the well-being of the community. That thread has carried through my entire career.
Stephen WoodwardOkay. Thank you for sharing.
Michele WilliamsThanks. What do you think inspired that desire to be of service to the community?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayFor me, it’s rooted in my upbringing. My dad is a pharmacist—he’s retired now—but he worked in community pharmacy in our hometown for close to 40 years.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayGrowing up, everywhere we went—dinner, shopping—he’d run into someone who knew him as their pharmacist. Most conversations weren’t health related. He was just well known, well liked, held in high esteem because of his care.
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI grew up in a small Montana town where community mindedness was baked in—what do we do for each other because we all know each other?
KariLynn Dowling-McClayI probably didn’t realize it at the time, but those experiences made me see that if I wanted to do something meaningful for my community, pharmacy was a powerful way to do it.
Michele WilliamsWow. That's great. Doctor Dowling-McClay, thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasure speaking with you and learning more about you.
Stephen WoodwardThanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at etsu.edu/pharmacy or follow us on social media @ETSUPharmacy. We'll see you next time.
 

Episode 21 - Interview with Dr. David Roane

Interview with Dr. David Roane.