Episode 11 - What to expect in Infectious Disease with Dr. David Cluck

On this episode, Dan and Michele talk with Dr. David Cluck, Associate Professor in the Department of Pharmacy Practice at ETSU Gatton College of Pharmacy.  He specializes in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy, and is the course coordinator for the Infectious Diseases course in the Integrated Series  Dr. Cluck shares his advice for success in this challenging course! 

Transcript:

Dan Vanzant
Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty to pharmacists. We're your hosts, Dan Vanzant, and I'm—

Michele Williams
Doctor Michele Williams. Today we'll be talking with Doctor David Cluck, associate professor in the Department of Pharmacy Practice. He specializes in infectious diseases pharmacotherapy and is the course coordinator for the ID course in the integrated series here at Gatton, which students take in fall of their P2 year. Doctor Cluck maintains a clinical pharmacy practice with the Infectious Diseases Consult Service at Johnson City Medical Center.

In this episode, we'll talk with Doctor Cluck about his course and get some advice on how students can get the most out of it. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Cluck.

David Cluck
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Michele Williams
So let's talk about your course a little. Some students can be a bit intimidated by ID. What makes this content so challenging?

David Cluck
I think that it's challenging for a number of reasons. I think that the transition from the P1 to P2 year, which we're going to talk about, is pretty staggering for a lot of students. You sort of delve into clinical‑based scenarios. The clinical questions—I think that alone probably intimidates students the most—is the questions and just not being familiar with how to approach those types of questions.

Michele Williams
The dreaded case‑based question.

David Cluck
The case‑based questions, yeah. And then I think the material in and of itself is just difficult. I think it's not something that—most students have seen Medical Micro, but that may have been some time ago. And then to look at it through a clinical lens, I think, makes it all the more difficult.

And then I tell students in the course, usually in the first week, it's a lot of volume. It's a lot of volume, especially in the first exam. You need to spend a lot of time with it. It's a lot of memorization. So dividing up your studying and having good study habits—that’s revisiting over time leading up to the exam.

But I think all those things kind of collapse into one and make it a really challenging, challenging content, challenging course. I don't know—I think every student's different. I think every student probably looks at it differently. Some students might not have the same fear about case‑based questions. They may be good test takers. But the content again in and of itself is still a challenge for a lot of people.

Michele Williams
It’s a course—from my experience working with students—where it's a bad idea to get behind.

David Cluck
I would agree. Yeah, I would agree. I try to tell students as well, don’t wait until a couple of days before the exam. I think this is a course that—so many students find out their study habits leading up to ID and then subsequent integrated series courses—you can't do the same things and get away with studying for 2 or 3 days really hard and skipping class and that be sufficient. So yeah, I agree it's a challenge.

Dan Vanzant
Yeah. So, what P1 course or courses are most connected to ID?

David Cluck
So I think the P1 course for me that's probably the most connected is probably not the one that's the most obvious. And I would say UTC. And the reason I think it's UTC is because I think that is the introduction where you start to see case‑based questions. Students have to reason through why selecting this therapy over other available therapies listed, and why it's correct and what's most correct.

I think that's kind of a sneak peek as to what you get when you begin the integrated series. I do think immunology does kind of come back, but it's not realized until probably the P3 year when you get into HIV and some of the concepts in the IHOP course.

Michele Williams
So it sounds like that memorization—the fundamental facts you learn at the very beginning of the course—does factor into being able to answer case‑based questions, because you have to apply what you know to a case.

David Cluck
I think so. I think that UTC, again, is kind of the first introduction into case‑based questions. Then you get into ID and you see really a lot of case‑based questions. And I often say—tell students—that once you make it through my course, prepare yourself for all subsequent courses because you're going to see case‑based questions in every other course moving forward.

So I do think, yeah, there is application that they carry with them. Whether they fully appreciate that, I don't know. I do have students that come back to me—more so in the P4 year, not after the P3 year. In the P4 year, they appreciate what was talked about in ID. They say, “I’ve been on rotation and all those things we talked about in class—it’s been a little while—but it's kind of come full circle.”

Michele Williams
Well, you offered a really great segue to the next question, which is: What courses in the curriculum does ID prepare students for? So in the spring of P2 and then into the P3 year and P4.

David Cluck
I think the answer is all of them, at least in the integrated series. Because ID is essentially in every integrated series course. It presents itself in every course—to my knowledge. It might not be taught by me, but it is in every other course.

And I think a few years back I remember hearing some students say that for IHOP in particular—don't neglect ID. It kind of represents itself. And if you've slept on it, well, it does present itself in the curriculum in our courses. But it's only in sort of bite‑size amounts.

So I think some students might say, “Well, 7 to 10 questions versus 20 questions on neuro psych,” and so it's easy to say, “This is not my priority.” But I do think remembering concepts from ID is important through the didactic portion and especially important for rotations.

One of the things I tell learners—I just told this to students recently—ID will find you. It doesn't matter where you go. You can avoid my rotation and go with Dr. Chair or Dr. Covert and I guarantee you'll see plenty of ID.

So ID is important right at the beginning because it represents itself over and over again—even beyond the classroom.

Michele Williams
And I really liked what you touched on just a minute ago—counting up the number of questions represented by a subject. I think that can be a recipe for disaster. Saying “There are only five ID questions, so I'll focus on the others.”

Well, ID will find you, as you just said.

But also, that’s a grade‑based orientation versus a learning‑based orientation. You have to learn everything to be a competent pharmacist. So I’m glad you touched on that—because a lot of students use that strategy and then wind up coming to see me because they're not doing well in certain subjects.

Michele Williams
So, thank you for bringing that up.

What are some things that you see students doing in class where you think, “Yes, that student is doing well,” and that bodes well for their grade? Are there things you see students doing that are a recipe for success?

David Cluck
I think the answer here is—I’m not really 100% sure. And I say that because there's so much heterogeneity. Everybody’s different—how people process things.

Students come see me and say, “This is not sticking—what can I do?” So we walk through strategies. For some students it’s making note cards. But I usually say be wary of note cards—you can spend all your time making them and then have one day to use them. Not a great use of time.

What I usually tell students—and it’s not their favorite answer—is: put it into your own system.

If that means making study guides, rewriting notes, highlighting them—do what works for you. I had a student years ago with at least ten colors of highlighter. Everything highlighted. She’d come into my office and say, “Pink means this, blue means this…” If it works—great.

But I can't say, “If you do this one thing, you'll be successful.” I don't have that.

David Cluck
Some students seek additional resources—bug‑drug guides, cheat sheets online. I would say that’s helpful for some, but be cautious. As a student, you don’t know what's good and what’s validated. Something may not line up with what’s in my notes—and then you're frustrated. I've seen that happen.

I’m always happy to validate something and say, “Yes, use that,” or “No, don’t use that.” But ID sits in this tricky space—lots of info online, but not all of it is good.

So my best answer is: it depends on the student.

Michele Williams
I agree—it depends on whether you're someone who processes by talking or by writing. Some students need time alone before joining a study group. Some jump right in. You have to know that about yourself.

And yes—students can always come see me if they want help learning their learning style. We can talk through what’s worked before and adapt it.

And I also agree about Quizlet. Using someone else's cards can be risky. They might match the notes—or they might reflect someone who made a D in the course.

ID is one of those courses where if you don't know yourself as a learner, it’s time to figure that out fast.

David Cluck
Yeah. When I was a student, I didn’t really get the benefit of group learning until maybe P3. And I realized—I missed out. But you can’t come into a group having studied nothing. You won’t contribute—you’ll panic.

I see that sometimes in review sessions—a day or two before the exam. Panic rising because there’s an area they didn’t spend time on.

I endorse group learning—but you need to know where you are before engaging.

Michele Williams
It can have a counter‑effect otherwise.

David Cluck
It will not be good.

Dan Vanzant
Yeah—you can't ask other people during the test what they know. You’re by yourself.

Michele Williams
Right.

Dan Vanzant
So if I may—since I'm the ID person (instructional design, not infectious disease!)—do you have any tools that are your go‑to if you need to refresh your memory? Maybe something from when you were a student that stuck with you?

David Cluck
It’s a tricky question because the temptation for students is to download the Sanford Guide. And that’s just… too much. We live in a world where everything is an app now.

When I was a student—this will make me sound old—we didn’t have all this. Smartphones existed, but the app ecosystem wasn’t what it is now. I carried the Sanford Guide around.

But Sanford is too much for a P2 student. I would NOT purchase it yet.

There are things out there that are good—Quizlet, ID Stewardship, bug‑drug charts online. But I don’t have one source I point to as “the thing.”

And honestly—reach out to me. Email, Teams—whatever. Sometimes it's just better to come talk to me. Email can become a novella. It’s easier in person.

Last year I had structured hours where students could come in. I’ll do that again. I also hold review sessions before most exams. And students who’ve been through ID will tell you: go to the review session.

I’m always mystified that it’s not the whole class. But people have jobs and obligations, so it’s recorded. Still—you miss the chance to privately message questions.

And that is something students love—anonymity. No one sees the question but me. And if one student has the question—ten others do too.

Michele Williams
I love that. Students really do struggle to ask a question when they think they’re the only one. The private message option is brilliant.

And you're right—when several people ask the same question, that tells the instructor something. It helps us see where the gap is. Students don’t always realize that their questions help us teach better.

David Cluck
Yeah. I can usually tell in person from body language. Zoom made that harder. But in class—I can see on their faces when something isn't landing.

Dan Vanzant
Shifting in the seat, yeah.

David Cluck
Yes.

Michele Williams
Do you have any other questions, Dan?

Dan Vanzant
Nope, I'm good.

Michele Williams
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Cluck. This has been great. And I learned some things about ID that I’m filing away for future reference. And thanks so much—we’ll see you next time.

David Cluck
Sounds good. Thanks for having me.