White Coat Radio

Episode 20 - Interview with Dr. Jessica Burchette (Part 2)

We continue our conversation with Dr. Jessica Burchette, Associate Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, and dig deeper into the pharmacotherapy and patient care course. She is a clinical pharmacist who helped lead the recent curriculum changes at the college.
Transcript:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, Director of Academic Success, and my co-host is Stephen Woodward, our Communications and Marketing Manager.
Michele WilliamsHi, Stephen.
Stephen WoodwardHey, Doctor Williams. Joining us today is Doctor Jessica Burchette. Doctor Burchette is an Associate Professor of Pharmacy Practice, and she was selected as the Distinguished Faculty in Teaching at ETSU in 2023. She was also the keynote speaker at ETSU commencement in December of 2023. Doctor Burchette coordinates the Pharmacotherapy and Patient Care course that takes place during the fall of the second professional year. Doctor Burchette, welcome to White Coat Radio.
Jessica BurchetteThank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here, Stephen.
Stephen WoodwardWell, can you start by telling us a little bit about the Pharmacotherapy and Patient Care course?
Jessica BurchetteYes, absolutely. This is one of the courses that I'm most excited about with our new curriculum. It is a four-course series that starts in the fall of the second professional year, as you mentioned in your introduction.
The goal of this course is to start out with very common diseases that our patients have — things like high blood pressure, diabetes, coronary artery disease, influenza, GERD, even heartburn.
We're starting students out in a stepwise approach, and we're trying to really wade them into the water of being a clinical pharmacist and thinking through patient issues clinically. Starting out with a single disease state and then beginning to layer those disease states with each other so that we're not teaching in a silo — we're not learning about one disease state and then forgetting about that and moving to the next disease state.
Everything continues to build. So our students started out this year with very basic topics that I actually taught — allergic rhinitis, which is just seasonal allergies — and then moved into things like heartburn. Then they started talking about lipids, cholesterol, and hypertension. Now they're talking about coronary artery disease, which is impacted by people who have hypertension and lipid problems.
You can see how we're continually growing and building that repertoire and moving things forward. The goal is that by the end of the four-course series, students can rattle off any information they need to take care of a patient with those basic core disease states, and then begin implementing more complex patients as we move through.
The series actually ends with patients who have cancer or other types of oncologic issues. So taking care of a patient that has a very acute disease state — but they still have high blood pressure, they still have heartburn — and making sure that you can look at all those medications safely and decide what's best for a patient.
Michele WilliamsSo you mentioned that this course is part of a four-part series. What can students expect from the series beyond just getting more complex as it goes along?
Jessica BurchetteRight. I think that's a great question. Our goal in this series is that we slowly provide students with more opportunity for self-growth.
We're starting out teaching students how to read medical literature and where to find guidelines. As we move through, students will be able to take that information and interpret it on their own without the faculty member picking out the most important pieces.
We're really trying to teach students how to teach themselves — slowly removing some of those guardrails and allowing more free thought and self-expression.
By the end, students should feel like they have the power, authority, and autonomy to look at a patient and very confidently say, “I feel like there's something here that I can contribute to this patient based on my own thought processes.”
Stephen WoodwardWhat should students do to be successful in the course?
Jessica BurchetteThis entire course series is built around team learning — taking small teams of students and giving them patient scenarios or complex questions to think through as a group.
The first thing students can do is really lean into that. Ask good questions. Participate with your group.
I always tell students that thinking out loud in learning is like going to the gym and paying someone to teach you how to properly lift weights. They have to see you do it in order to correct your form or encourage the direction you're moving in.
As faculty, we really view ourselves as personal trainers of how you're going to think through problems. The only way we can help you with that is if you speak and really engage in the process.
Participate in class. Participate with your small groups during case discussions and facilitated exercises. And do the pre-reading.
That is a big difference in this course compared to what we've done in the past — asking students to do a small amount of pre-work prior to coming to class so they're ready to engage.
It allows us to maximize class time while also giving students practice in digesting material for themselves. It may not be comfortable at first, but so far, the students are doing a great job. It really shows in their performance and the way they're able to engage with us in the classroom.
Michele WilliamsPrior to the new curriculum, students were taking the Integrated Series, which was comprised of discrete courses like pulmonary, renal, and cardio. How has the focus shifted from those separate courses into this integrated series?
Jessica BurchetteThat's a great question. The Integrated Series became very compressed and very classroom-heavy. Students might have only three weeks to cover everything related to the renal system — pharmacology, medicinal chemistry, and therapy — all at once.
It was a sprint. Courses never overlapped, and there was never a passing of the baton from one course to the next so information could build.
We also determined that spaced retrieval of information is so important to learning. In the previous model, students would learn pharmacology one day and therapy the next without time to digest. When you understand how a drug works and how the body works, it makes sense why we use certain drugs — but they didn't have time to process that.
Now we've separated pharmacology and medicinal chemistry into a three-semester core series. Then students move into pharmacotherapy, where they apply that information to treating patients.
We've also reduced classroom seat time. We realized we can't expect students to prepare effectively after sitting in class for eight hours. No one has that kind of mental capacity after being mentally fatigued all day.
Previously, we as faculty sometimes defaulted to saying, “I know you didn't have time to read, so here's what you need to know.” We were feeding information rather than allowing students to interact with it.
With the new curriculum — and with Doctor Williams’ help — we've been more intentional about balancing seat time with independent learning. Students now have less classroom time, more time to digest information, and more time to engage with the community through flu clinics, blood pressure checks, and senior center activities.
That experiential learning is just as important as classroom learning.
Michele WilliamsOne of the things I noticed when sitting in on the class is how it facilitates students making connections across disease states and gives them time to reflect and build memory and retrieval skills.
Jessica BurchetteYou've been instrumental in that. Faculty are often faculty because we love school — we're nerds. But not every student thrives in the same way.
Doctor Williams has helped us see things from a student perspective and identify where what we intended didn't always match how students experienced it.
The pharmacotherapy faculty meet every three weeks to discuss how the class is going, what issues we're seeing, and whether it's working the way we expected. That has been instrumental in continuing to grow the quality of the course.
Stephen WoodwardIs there anything else you'd like to add today?
Jessica BurchetteI've been really impressed with the way faculty have jumped in and gone the extra mile. I've also been impressed with the students and the quality feedback they've provided.
We know it won’t be perfect the first time. Student feedback is so important.
I've also been really pleased with the support from the Executive Committee, the Dean, Doctor Lugo, Department Chairs Doctor Stacy Brown and Doctor Sarah Thomason, and Doctor David Stewart over Academic Affairs.
Everyone has stepped back and said, “We’re ready to do what we need to do to make the best graduate for our community and for the pharmacy profession as a whole.”
It’s been humbling to watch everyone rally around this and build something special.
We're already hearing great feedback from introductory pharmacy practice preceptors about how engaged and professional students are, and how they come in on day one with real skills.
I can’t wait to see them move into their advanced pharmacy practice experiences and hear that continued feedback. It’s going to be amazing.
Stephen WoodwardGreat.
Michele WilliamsThat’s fantastic. We did an earlier episode with Doctor Burchette about the curriculum, and this course really illustrates that curriculum in a microcosm.
You’ve done such an amazing job leading the curriculum change and this course. We're very excited about the future and grateful you joined us today.
Jessica BurchetteThank you for your support and your kind words. I appreciate the chance to share these thoughts with you and with your listeners.

Episode 19 - Interview with Dr. Jessica Burchette (Part 1)

Check out Part 1 of our interview with Dr. Jessica Burchette, Associate Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. She is a clinical pharmacist who helped lead the recent curriculum changes at the college. 
 
Transcript:
Stephen Woodward:Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Every episode we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, Director of Academic Success, and my co-host is Stephen Woodward, our Communications and Marketing Manager.
Stephen Woodward:Hi, Stephen.
Michele Williams:Hey, Doctor Williams.
Stephen Woodward:Joining us today is Doctor Jessica Burchette. Our listeners may know Doctor Burchette as an Associate Professor of Pharmacy Practice, but they may not know that she’s a Gatton alum and was a graduate of the inaugural class at Gatton. She was also selected as the Distinguished Faculty in Teaching at East Tennessee State University in 2023. One of her many roles at Gatton is Chair of the Curriculum Steering Committee. So when we began implementing our new curriculum, she led those efforts, and that’s what we’re here to talk about today. Doctor Burchette, welcome to White Coat Radio.
Jessica Burchette:Thank you, Doctor Williams. I’m so excited to be here with you both today.
Michele Williams:So we’ll start with the basics. Tell us, what is a curriculum, and what does it mean to change it?
Jessica Burchette:That is a great question.
I think of a curriculum as one of two things. One is a roadmap. We have a goal in mind that all of our graduates will be excellent pharmacists who take care of the public and serve their communities, and so we need a roadmap to make sure they get there efficiently, in the right order.
The other thing a curriculum is, to me, is like packing a suitcase. If you're going on a trip, you need the right proportion of the right things in order to be successful at your destination. And so when we’re thinking about a curriculum in terms of education, it’s both the science skills — understanding how the body works and how drugs work — and also understanding how to implement those and communicate those to patients, how to communicate with other health care professionals, and how to make good decisions financially and with the resources that patients might have.
And so there’s a lot of different aspects to a curriculum, and our job is to make sure we have all those placed at the right time, in the right order, and in the right proportion to give our students the launch that they need to move into their careers.
Stephen Woodward:So when did Gatton decide to change its curriculum, and why?
Jessica Burchette:That’s a great question. I think a curriculum should always be dynamic. It should never be stagnant, because as new things change and as we learn new things about medications and how to best treat people, our curriculum should change as well.
However, what we’re talking about today is a big change, because we revised our curriculum to have a totally different outlook and mindset compared to what we’re calling our legacy curriculum.
I would say this began around COVID. That’s a marker that everyone remembers. We were starting to see in our graduates maybe some places where our curriculum was not meeting their needs as quickly as it could.
So we sat down as a faculty and asked, what is our goal? What are we trying to create? What can we be really good at?
Here at Gatton, we can be really good at creating pharmacists who can impact their communities the day they graduate. They should not need extra training to be practice-ready. While many of our students choose to pursue additional training and have great success, we want to make sure that when our students leave here, they are ready to impact their communities immediately.
And so we asked, what are the key things a pharmacist should know at graduation? And that question really drove our curricular change.
The other driver is that things are always changing in medicine. We’re always learning, and so we need to teach our students how to teach themselves once they graduate, because the information we teach them will be out of date quickly. They need the tools and the skills to go out, learn new information, and digest it as it becomes available.
So those were really the two main drivers of changing our curriculum.
Michele Williams:Curriculum change sounds like an enormous task. Can you walk us through the mechanics of how you changed it?
Jessica Burchette:That is a great question. I’m fortunate to lead a Curriculum Steering Committee made up of faculty who truly want to put students first. That was instrumental in making such an enormous change possible.
We started by going back to our mission and vision. What is Gatton here to do? What makes us unique? And how do we lean into that?
Then we mapped out what we believed to be the most important competencies and outcomes for our graduates. Once we had that big picture, we worked backward. We asked, what foundational knowledge needs to happen first? What skills need to be layered in? Where do we need repetition? Where do we need integration?
It was not a quick process. It involved a lot of meetings, a lot of discussion, and honestly, a lot of humility — because sometimes we had to admit that something we had done for a long time might not be the best approach anymore.
We also gathered feedback from alumni, preceptors, and students. We asked them where they felt strong and where they felt less prepared. That external feedback was really important in shaping the direction we took.
Then came the work of restructuring courses — deciding what to move, what to combine, what to expand, and what to remove. And that part required collaboration across departments, because no one course stands alone.
So mechanically, it was a lot of mapping, revising, presenting proposals, getting approval, revising again — and continuing to refine as we implemented.
Stephen Woodward:That sounds like a huge lift.
Jessica Burchette:It was. It was. But I will say that it was energizing, too. When you get a group of people together who all care deeply about student success and the future of the profession, it’s motivating.
And we’ve continued to adjust as we go. Curriculum change is not something you do once and then walk away from. It’s something you continue to evaluate and refine.

Episode 18 - Interview with Dr. Shelby Brooks

Hear from Dr. Shelby Brooks, one of the newest editions to faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, and learn about her clinical interests as well as her obsession with Harry Potter!
 
Transcript:
Michele Williams:Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, and I'm joined today by one of my co-hosts, Stephen Woodward, our Marketing and Communications Manager.
Hi, Stephen.
Stephen Woodward:Hey, Michele.
Michele Williams:In this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Shelby Brooks, one of the newest additions to the faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice here at Gatton. Doctor Brooks, welcome to White Coat Radio.
Shelby Brooks:Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here this morning.
Stephen Woodward:Doctor Brooks, can you start by telling us what brought you to Gatton and a little bit about your background?
Shelby Brooks:Absolutely, yes. So before I moved to Johnson City, I lived in Shreveport, Louisiana, and I was also an Assistant Professor at University of Louisiana Monroe on their Shreveport campus. So I've been in academia for about three years now. Really enjoy it. Teaching is definitely one of my passions. And then moving to Johnson City, I really wanted to get back closer to family.
So my family is from the Asheville, North Carolina area, and they live in Marshall, North Carolina now, so it's only about 45 minutes away. So I had been thinking about wanting to move closer to the area, and I saw this job posted, and so it seemed to be a really good fit with working with family medicine and getting back to an area that I really loved.
I also lived in Knoxville for six years to finish up pharmacy school and to do residency. So I was really excited to get back to the area. Once I had my interview here, it really solidified it for me. Everybody was so welcoming, and I felt pretty much part of the faculty even on my interview day. So it worked out really well, and I'm excited to be here and to get started again.
Stephen Woodward:That's good to hear. Thank you.
Michele Williams:So in what courses can students expect to see you?
Shelby Brooks:Yeah, we are still working that out a little bit, but as of right now I will be in the new pharmacotherapy series. So I'll be in Pharmacotherapy One with the P2s this fall, and I'll be teaching coronary artery disease. So they'll get to have me for about two weeks in the classroom. And then in the spring I'm also teaching Pharmacotherapy Two, and I'll teach ischemic stroke in that series as well.
So again, with the P2s. I get to interact with the P1s a little bit. I'll be an IPPE One facilitator for that. And then I will also be a facilitator for the communications course that's starting in a couple of weeks.
Michele Williams:Oh that's great. Yeah.
Stephen Woodward:So you're also a practicing pharmacist. Can you tell us about that side of your working life?
Shelby Brooks:Absolutely. Since residency, I have practiced with inpatient family medicine. That is absolutely my passion. I love working with the family medicine team. So when I was in Shreveport at my previous academic position, I also worked with an inpatient family medicine team. And then now that I'm here at Gatton, I'll also be working with inpatient family medicine, both at Johnson City Medical Center and at Holston Valley Medical Center.
So working in the hospital, working with my team is definitely a huge passion of mine. I love being able to show that with the students and show them the type of pharmacy that I practice, and showing them that you can practice at the top of your license. We see any and all disease states. So family medicine patients tend to be some of the sicker patients in the hospital, besides critical care type of patients. They just have a lot of disease states, and they tend to be a bit of an underserved population, so not as much access to healthcare as maybe a traditional type of patient.
So we really get to dive into all different kinds of disease states with a family medicine team, and that's what I love about it. It keeps me busy. I don't get bored. There's always something new going on.
Stephen Woodward:If I can ask a follow-up question to that, to speak maybe to the prospective student to Gatton who's weighing different career paths in health sciences, what would you tell them about the importance of pharmacy and the different career paths available to them?
Shelby Brooks:Yeah, I think pharmacy in general as a career, just as a career path, and the different things that you can go into in pharmacy, really the basis of that is being the medication expert. And so I'm sure that the new students and students that are enrolled here hear that all the time, and prospective students will too.
But that's a really important thing when you look at other professions. So like physicians that you're working with, nurses, any kind of other health profession, they really only get a semester or two of pharmacology. It's not even like pharmacotherapy. So it's really important for us to be able to come into an interdisciplinary team and use that medication expertise to provide the best care possible to our patients.
It seems like a small thing when you're talking about it, but it's really not. And when you get into an interprofessional team and they've not worked with a pharmacist before, it tends to be a bit of a mind-blowing thing for them to have access to us. So it's really important, and I would say definitely take pride in what you do as a pharmacist, because a lot of other health professions really appreciate what we do.
Michele Williams:Cool. Thank you. Yeah. Sounds like they rely on the pharmacists.
Shelby Brooks:Absolutely. Yes. There are definitely things like when they are working with a pharmacist, a lot of the times they don't think about what the blood sugars are looking like. They don't think about what the blood pressures are looking like either. A lot of that stuff can kind of fall on us as the pharmacist, and we can make those recommendations to the team, and they really appreciate it.
Michele Williams:It's great. So during our Getting Ready transition weeks, which we just finished at this point in the year, you gave a great piece of advice to our incoming P1s, which was to not be afraid to say hello to someone. And you emphasized the importance of networking. Can you talk a little bit more about networking when you were in pharmacy school and beyond, and how that can benefit you when you're a student pharmacist or a newly minted pharmacist?
Shelby Brooks:Yeah, absolutely. I know that networking can be a scary word, so please don't be afraid of it. Really, all that networking is, and it's why I put this piece of advice, it's just saying hello to someone. It is the easiest way to learn about different people in your profession, learn about different people that you're working with that maybe aren't a pharmacist, but they're still going to be in your work circle.
And so that's really important. When I was a student, I started networking by getting involved in my student organizations. So I was in a pharmaceutical fraternity, and then I also was heavily involved in APhA when I was a student. I pursued leadership positions within those organizations. I wouldn't say that you have to pursue those types of positions, but go to the meetings. Go to the annual meetings. Go to the Grand Councils, all kinds of different things. For APhA, go to those meetings.
And be willing to just go and say hi to someone, whether it's another student in a different chapter, whether it's another professor, it really doesn't matter.
And the cool thing about professional meetings, if you are able to go as a student, is that people want you to talk to them. Professors want to talk to you about what they're doing in their pharmacy practice. Other students want to tell you what's going on with their chapter, with whatever particular organization's meeting that you're at. They want to tell you these things.
And the more that you're willing to just go and talk to someone, the more connections that you can make, and you absolutely never know what those connections are going to help you do later in your career.
So as an example, I got involved with ACCP when I was a student. I was involved with ACCP as a resident as well, and I joined some of the committees and different divisions. Within one of the committees that I was in, I actually got a job offer initially when I was coming out of residency. I had worked with her on a couple of projects for the committee. She knew how I practiced, and she knew the type of residency that I was in. And when the position at her institution became available, she emailed me personally and was like, I think this would be a good fit for you. Please consider applying.
So you never know what's going to happen. Definitely say hi to someone. Network, and then stay in touch with them as well.
Stephen Woodward:It's great advice.
Michele Williams:Yeah, that does sound like really good advice. And something that you're clearly good at. So just as a side note, you and I met when you came for your interview, and I can remember thinking that you're so easy to talk to and very engaging. And that has an impact when you're looking for a job, that sort of ability to connect with people and talk with them. And I get the feeling that maybe because you put yourself out there and you've practiced a little bit over the years, kind of figured out what feels comfortable for you.
And I think that's probably true of anybody, that you have to find what your style is and what you're comfortable with, and then just like you said, say hello.
Shelby Brooks:So yeah. And like I, I'm definitely, I consider myself an extroverted person. So I love being around people. I get very energized being around people. But you don't have to be an extrovert to network well. And that is definitely a point that I want to emphasize. You don't have to be extroverted. And I did practice when I was a student. I had my little elevator speech for the different residency showcases that I went to and all that stuff.
So if you put a little time into it, a little bit of practice, practice within your friend group, you're going to become really good at networking and being able to go up and talk to those people and make connections.
Michele Williams:Awesome.
Stephen Woodward:So what are you most excited about in teaching again?
Shelby Brooks:I am really excited to get into the pharmacotherapy series. Pharmacotherapy in general and teaching that type of stuff is really what I'm passionate about. I did a pharmacotherapy residency for two years, so anytime I can get into the therapy and all those things, I really enjoy that.
I also eventually want to develop an elective. That's something that's kind of on the page over the next few years, kind of determining that. I'll be very honest, I have no idea what it's going to look like right now. Probably something inpatient-focused, but just not really sure the direction. But it definitely is part of my goals here in the next few years while I'm here at Gatton.
Michele Williams:Yeah. Are there any other things that you would like for our listeners, and especially our Gatton students, to know about you or to share with them before we finish up today that we haven't talked about yet?
Shelby Brooks:Absolutely. I'll get a little nerdy here so you can learn about me as a person and not just a pharmacist for a minute. I'm a huge animal lover. I'm also a huge Harry Potter fan. Since I was a child, I used to go to the midnight book premieres. So I'm aging myself a little bit, but it was the best thing when I was growing up.
So my pet names. I have two dogs. One of them is named Neville, like Neville Longbottom. One is Rowena, like Rowena Ravenclaw. And then I have my cat. Her name is Minerva, like Minerva McGonagall. So obviously very obsessed with Harry Potter. Huge animal lover. So if you ever want to talk about those things, please feel free to stop by my office. I'm always happy to nerd out and to geek out, really, about books in general. So anybody who's a reader, please come and talk about it.
Stephen Woodward:Or if you're into Harry Potter, did you know about the House program? The in the wellbeing program?
Shelby Brooks:I did. I found out about that. I am not shy about my Harry Potter fanaticism. And so when I was interviewing, I heard about the Harry Potter — like the Potter houses and the sorting and stuff like that. So I'm very excited to learn more about it. And I know there's a sorting ceremony this week, right? It's Friday.
Yeah, very excited to hear about it.
Michele Williams:You really fit right in here. Absolutely. Well, Doctor Brooks, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a great conversation.
Shelby Brooks:Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Stephen Woodward:It's great chat. Yeah.
 

Episode 17 - Meet Dr. Kaitlyn North

Listen to this interview with Class of 2022 alumna Dr. Kaitlyn North, who returns to her beloved East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy not to visit but as one of the newest editions to faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice.
Transcript:
Stephen Woodward:Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, and I'm joined today by one of my co-hosts, Stephen Woodward, our Marketing and Communications Manager.
Hi, Stephen.
Michele Williams:Hey, Doctor Williams.
Stephen Woodward:In this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Kaitlyn North, one of the newest additions to the faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice here at Gatton. Well, she's a new addition to the faculty. She's not at all new to Gatton. She graduated from the Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in 2022. Doctor North, welcome to White Coat Radio.
Kaitlyn North:Thank you so much.
Michele Williams:So this probably feels like homecoming, I imagine. Talk about your journey from student pharmacist now coming back as faculty.
Kaitlyn North:It definitely feels like a homecoming to be back here. I'm very thankful to be back here. When I was a student pharmacist, I was really into peds. I thought, I'm going to be a pediatric pharmacist. And then as I progressed in the curriculum, I started liking the adult disease states more. So during my P4 year, I really solidified that I wanted to go into ambulatory care.
So I matched to my outpatient-focused PGY1 residency in South Carolina. That was a rural program. So I thought my skills that I learned and our mission really helped me there. I practiced at a federally qualified health center, which is like the Johnson City Community Health Center across the street. But I kind of describe it like a fancy health department.
We didn't turn anyone away for inability to pay, anything like that. We did sliding scale fees, things like that. So that really helped me sharpen my rural health skills and definitely helped my ambulatory care skills, being savvy with medication cost, things like that.
And then I did a PGY2 in ambulatory care at the University of Tennessee Medical Center in Knoxville. I think that also helped me with Indigenous populations. We had a lot of people come from all the surrounding rural areas to Knoxville because that is our academic medical center, and towards Middle Tennessee. So I saw people from Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina. That was a really good opportunity for me to also sharpen my ambulatory care skills with some of the more niche clinics like cystic fibrosis and specialty clinics like rheumatology and advanced lipid management, things like that.
But I was definitely ready to come home to Gatton. I feel like I'm ready to apply the skills I've learned elsewhere back here.
Stephen Woodward:Thank you for sharing. Yeah. So for our current students who may be interested in teaching, what advice would you give them regarding preparing for a teaching career now while they're in pharmacy school?
Kaitlyn North:I would definitely recommend taking the academia APPE. No matter who you get, you're going to get to go to faculty meetings. I know Doctor Alexander always says it's like pulling the curtain back and seeing how Disney works. I think that's true. I enjoyed that.
Another thing that's really important that I feel helped me sharpen some skills is in residency. Almost every program has a teaching and learning certificate. They call it different things, like Pharmacy Educator Academy, but it's basically your teaching certificate. They do teach you foundational things like how to write exam questions. A lot of them go over how to be a good preceptor, which is something we obviously don't have any experience with.
So I think getting plugged in in those little ways, and then also a lot of times your residencies will let you be a guest lecturer. I know our residents at Gatton definitely get that. A lot of residents will give you as much as you want. Every college of pharmacy. I loved that. I was volunteering myself to help them.
Faculty members typically don't have as much free time on their hands to help grade OSCEs and things like that. So I really think that volunteering myself for those extra things, both of my residencies were associated with colleges of pharmacy, so making those connections in this world. I know students roll their eyes, but pharmacy really is such a small world. So I think all those connections really helped me.
Continuing education, things like that. I'll do extra CE and then attend meetings, things like that. So I think showing your interest and getting plugged in where you can makes a big difference, especially if you don't have that experience like I did not when I was applying for this job.
Stephen Woodward:And it sounds like also that if you think you might be interested in teaching, those experiences might help you decide if that's what you'd like to do — an academic APPE would also let you know something that doesn't really interest you so much, or doing a certificate or something. So it might even be good if someone's trying to decide if that's what they want to do.
Kaitlyn North:Absolutely. I had co-residents who were like, yep, this is not for me. And I think a part of academia that you might not realize until you're in residency is that medical residencies that are training physicians will also hire a pharmacist. And pharmacy students versus medical residents are very different audiences to teach.
So I've seen some of my friends really enjoy teaching medical residents. My co-resident from UT that was in ambulatory care actually works for the internal medicine program at UT now. So she doesn't teach at the pharmacy school, not affiliated with them at all. But she's very academic because she's working with the medical residents and teaches them their didactics and things like that. So there might even be more avenues than you think if you're interested in teaching.
Stephen Woodward:Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. Yeah, that's really interesting.
Kaitlyn North:I do a little bit of didactic teaching for my residents in the family medicine clinic in Kingsport, as do Doctor Smith and Doctor Doll as well.
Stephen Woodward:Great.
Michele Williams:So in addition to teaching, you're also a practicing pharmacist. Can you tell us more about that side of your working life? And in addition to that, can you give us kind of the 10,000-foot view for prospective students about the different kinds of pharmacy practice that they might encounter?
Kaitlyn North:I definitely thought I was either going into a hospital or a Walgreens when I graduated, and that is not the case. And that's perfectly fine if that's where you want to be. But yes, I love being a pharmacist. I love practicing.
The majority of my time is spent in that clinic in Kingsport with family medicine. So a lot of my role is consultative. So a resident comes to me and they say, my patient's A1C is out of control. What medicines should I consider? I do a lot of counseling on things like that.
The bread-and-butter disease states that I see and help with every day: smoking cessation, COPD, diabetes, high blood pressure. You know, I've had a heart attack. Now what do we do? That kind of thing.
So I love being a jack of all trades with ambulatory care. I don't see myself as a specialist. I see myself as a generalist just in a clinic, which I love because it's something new every day. But a lot of specialized clinical pharmacists do find that niche, like ID, cardiology, something like that. Critical care.
I think we're exposed well to the different career areas. It's kind of intimidating your P1 year, I think. We show you what is available as you go through more and more. Like I said, the more I learned, the more I shifted away from pediatrics. I'm sorry, Doctor Thigpen.
My advice would be never too early to consider residencies. They all have websites. Kind of see if that's something you'd be interested in. You get the advice a lot that it's a year of your life, but it unlocks a lot of doors for you.
There's a lot of cool positions. One of the girls I graduated with is a medical writer. So she works for a drug company and writes their literature and their key documents and things like that. So you would not think a pharmacist would be in that role. But I have some friends in industry that represent drugs and act kind of like a medical science liaison.
There are a lot of interesting jobs out there. But yeah, the backbone is definitely community pharmacy. So if that's where you want to go, then I completely support that too.
Michele Williams:If I can ask a follow-up to that along the same path, for prospective students who are weighing pharmacy against other health professions — medicine, physician assistant, those kinds of career paths — why should they look more closely at pharmacy, do you think?
Kaitlyn North:That's a great question. I think if you're considering pharmacy, something to think about is it's really easy to shadow in the pharmacy. I worked as a pharmacy tech when I was an undergrad, and I really enjoyed that.
I think pharmacists are — well, of course I'm going to say they're the backbone of the health system because I am one — but truly, we're the most accessible. You can walk into any independent or chain pharmacy and get medical advice right there. No copays, anything.
I take joy in the fact that I help make decisions. I am responsible for them. But we don't have a lot of the strife that physicians do in terms of how many patients are you seeing in a day and things like that.
I enjoy being someone that physicians lean on instead of someone that needs someone to lean on, if that makes sense.
Stephen Woodward:Does make sense.
Kaitlyn North:Thank you.
Stephen Woodward:So we were talking a little bit about teaching and how you came to Gatton in an academic position. In what courses can students expect to see you?
Kaitlyn North:That's a great question, especially because we just blew up and reconstructed our curriculum.
My first year, I'm helping with skills labs with things you would see in ambulatory care, like smoking cessation devices, the inhalers, more hands-on labs. I'll be in the CGM, or continuous glucose monitor like Dexcom, that lab for students. In the spring, I'll be teaching the SOAP note writing portion for outpatient practice in the skills labs.
After that next year, I don't know. That's the fun of being a generalist, right? I might teach gout. I might teach who knows what. But I probably will be popping in and out of the pharmacotherapy courses as they need me to.
Stephen Woodward:That's great.
Michele Williams:So talk about how you'd like to grow in this new position. What types of things would you like to do in the future?
Kaitlyn North:That's something I've started doing is piling my goal list and my aspiration list. I really would like to start an ACCP, or American College of Clinical Pharmacy, student chapter here. That is the organization I've plugged into really meaningfully. They have an ambulatory care section, so I'm with like-minded people in there.
We do interact with that organization through our Clinical Pharmacy Challenge, but I feel like I would have really blossomed in that as a student. So that's something in my five-year plan. I have probably groups and coworkers helping me with that.
I'm definitely excited to continue with research endeavors with the rural population that I serve in Kingsport. Most of my patients, I believe, are on TennCare, which is our Medicaid, or Medicare. So we definitely have a population that is underserved.
So I'm excited to have some projects brewing in my mind. I'd like to start at my clinic, but I need some time to get that going and get more settled. I really do want to be an integral part of our faculty and give back because I'm a very proud alumna.
I would go to Gatton again in a heartbeat if I could. And I think that's because of the faculty that are now my colleagues. So I really want to give back in the ways they have.
Michele Williams:Awesome.
Stephen Woodward:That's great. And we're extremely excited to have you back here again and in this new role. And it sounds like lots of exciting things ahead for you. So that's terrific. And thank you for joining us today. It's been great getting to chat with you and learning a little bit more about you.
Kaitlyn North:Yes. Thank you for having me. Also excited to get this invitation.
Stephen Woodward:To this. Great.
 
 
 
 

Episode 16 - Get to know Dr. Alex Surbaugh

In this episode, we talk with Dr. Alex Surbaugh, one of the newest editions to faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy.
 
Transcript:
Stephen WoodwardWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Stephen Woodward, the Marketing and Communications Manager at Gatton. And joining us is Doctor Michele Williams, Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice and Director of Academic Success.
Welcome, Doctor Williams.
Michele WilliamsThanks, Stephen.
Stephen WoodwardIn this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Alex Surbaugh, one of the newest additions to the faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice here at Gatton. Doctor Surbaugh, welcome to White Coat Radio.
Alex SurbaughThank you. Good to be here.
Michele WilliamsSo we're really excited to have you here as our guest. And I understand that your specialty is in psychiatry. Is that right?
Alex SurbaughThat is, yes. Psychiatry.
Michele WilliamsAnd can you tell us a little bit about your practice?
Alex SurbaughYeah. So I'm just kind of getting started. For anyone that's worked with Doctor Thompson, I'm kind of taking over and doing a lot of what she does, but kind of expanding in terms of—we've added a new clinic. So Kingsport Internal Medicine, and then also I’ll be in Johnson City Internal Medicine. So I split two days in Kingsport, two days in Johnson City.
Day to day, I’m kind of seeing patients and working with them on their psychiatric medication. So really kind of talking with them, getting to know what their symptoms are, working with their diagnoses, and then figuring out with the patient what the best medication plan moving forward is, and then kind of following up with them as needed and making sure that we're really doing our best to get care into all settings, especially for our psychiatric patients that may not be able to get in with a psychiatrist.
And so really excited to kind of get started with that patient population and make a difference, hopefully, here in East Tennessee.
Michele WilliamsThat sounds great. Good.
Stephen WoodwardSo what courses can students expect to see you in so far?
Alex SurbaughThe neuroscience course—I will be teaching this fall—the bipolar lecture. So that'll be kind of my first big lecture to teach. And then also kind of helping in some of the skills labs, communications, interprofessional education, things like that. But hopefully we'll continue to kind of ramp up as time goes on.
Michele WilliamsSo what are you most excited about with regard to working at Gatton?
Alex SurbaughThat's a really great question. I first came up to East Tennessee and Gatton in February for my interview. And so when I was here, the one thing that was really apparent was just how much of a family atmosphere is promoted here among the faculty, but also with the faculty in regards to the students as well.
I love that people know students’ names, because I was a student on a distant campus, so I had a smaller subset of faculty that I really got to know, and that really impacted my journey as a student pharmacist. And so I would say that's one of the things I'm most excited about here at Gatton, is being a part of that family atmosphere and being able to build those connections with students as well.
I know mentorship is so important, and having those people you can ask for advice on next steps. I'm like the first pharmacist on my side of the family, so I had no idea what really to be looking for or what was coming and what to expect. And having those mentors was great, and the faculty that I could reach out to. So really excited to get to know the students and work with them and build those relationships.
Michele WilliamsOh, that sounds great. Yeah.
Stephen WoodwardWell, tell us a little bit about your backstory. Where are you from originally, and where did you work prior to starting at Gatton?
Alex SurbaughI am from the Nashville area, so about 30 minutes south—born and raised in Franklin, Tennessee. Lived there all my life, and then went off to undergrad at the University of Mississippi. So I am a diehard Ole Miss fan. Football season is obviously coming up, so for me it’s an exciting time of year. But I spent four years in Oxford, enjoyed it, majored in chemistry, and knew that I wanted to do some sort of medicine.
And so that led me to apply to the College of Pharmacy at the University of Tennessee so that I could start to make my way back home. So I spent a year in Memphis and then three years in Nashville on our distant campus.
Once I finished pharmacy school, I knew I wanted to get out. I think it's really important—and it was really cool to me—to see practice somewhere different. And so I moved out to Kansas City and lived in Missouri but worked in Kansas at the University of Kansas Health System. So I did my general PGY1 training there—just very generalized—and then specialized. So I really committed, stayed, and did my PGY2 year in psychiatry at the University of Kansas as well.
So now I'm kind of making my way back to Tennessee, and that was always the plan. So here we are, back in East Tennessee now.
Stephen WoodwardThank you.
Michele WilliamsThat's great.
So it sounds like you considered Tennessee home. And what drew you to Gatton in particular?
Alex SurbaughWell, I will say, like I said, we knew we wanted to come to Tennessee. We knew we wanted to get back home. And then I would say the family atmosphere and how apparent it was on interview day. I feel like I didn't meet a stranger, which is really hard to do when you're coming in completely blind to someplace and you've never met anyone there in person.
But from my first interaction with Doctor Thomas over Zoom as a pre-interview to my actual time here, Johnson City and East Tennessee just really felt like home—somewhere I could see us putting down roots and building our own family and getting connected in the community, but then also within the college and with the students.
And I love the atmosphere and the culture that's promoted here. And so that's really what drew me in. And so far, I've been really pleasantly surprised with just how true that picture that is always portrayed really is, and just how reflective that is of my time here so far. Everyone's been great.
Michele WilliamsThat's terrific. Good to hear, too.
Alex SurbaughYeah.
Stephen WoodwardWell, for the prospective students out there considering a career in health sciences, what do you think is special about pharmacy? And why did you want to become a pharmacist?
Alex SurbaughPharmacy is one of those fields that I think is continuing to grow. When I first started pharmacy school—it sounds really silly because I obviously was going into pharmacy and committing my life to it—I just knew about the pharmacists that worked in the retail setting. I didn't realize that there were pharmacists in the hospital. I know it sounds silly to say now, but I remember the first day when we talked about residencies and specialty pharmacists that can specialize in different areas—psychiatry, cardiology, family medicine, any of that. I mean, it's just so expansive.
Now we're also seeing people in industry that are doing pharmaceutical sales, that are working on the research side of things. So I think that's what makes pharmacy so unique, is that we are such an expansive field that continues to grow, continues to expand.
And I think the second part of that is how accessible we can be to our patients. Medications are, I think to a lot of people, very scary. You read one warning label—someone always told me if you read the warning label, you'd never take the med. But I think we are in a great position to really work with patients on why these medications can be beneficial to them, what they should be watching for risk-wise, what the realistic risk-benefit is, and helping them to make educated decisions and being that kind of frontline person that has that conversation.
So I do think we bridge a lot of gaps for patients when it comes to their medical team care as well. And so that's something I love about my job as a pharmacist, is being that person that advocates for the patient and kind of making sure that their questions are answered and that they feel comfortable with what they're doing, while also advocating for them with the team.
Stephen WoodwardGreat. Thank you.
Michele WilliamsAnd what do you like to do in your spare time?
Alex SurbaughI am just now getting back some spare time post-residency. I think everyone always says residency is a busy time in your life, but especially when you uproot and move to a completely new city and then you're doing two years, it is a big time commitment. Very well worth it.
But I'm a big reader, so that's something—especially in the evenings—I love to just pick up a good book. I'm not really super specific on my genre, so historical fiction, thriller, mystery, anything like that—that's kind of how I unwind.
I do have a dog, so she is a Maltipoo, and we've really enjoyed taking her for walks.
Michele WilliamsI bet she's cute.
Alex SurbaughShe is. She's really little. She's about eight pounds, and I think she's a lot more ferocious than she really is. So we've enjoyed exploring the area, going for walks in the evenings, cooking. And then, like I said, college football season is coming up, so my Saturdays will be spent on the couch watching Ole Miss play. And my husband-to-be is a Bama grad, so unfortunately the Tide too. But—well.
Stephen WoodwardIs there anything else you'd like to mention?
Alex SurbaughEverything's been great so far up here. I'm really looking forward to getting started and really getting to know the students and working with all of the students here at Gatton. If I can ever be a resource or help to anyone, I hope they know that my door is always open. So there’s my email—feel free to email me or stop by my office and just say hello so that I can get to know everyone.
But thank you all for having me. It's been wonderful.
Michele WilliamsWell, thank you so much for joining us. This has been terrific. And thanks for giving us a chance to get to know you a little better.
Stephen WoodwardYes. Great. Thank you very much.

Bonus Episode - Dr. Melissa McCall's ('10) inspirational speech at the Class of 2028 White Coat Ceremony

In this special bonus episode, we hear an inspirational speech from alumna Dr. Melissa McCall, who graduated from the inaugural Class of 2010 and recently spoke to the Class of 2028 at their White Coat Ceremony in August 2024. Dr. McCall serves as the Pharmacy Professional Services Manager at Food City/KVAT Foods and oversees daily operations for 31 Food City Pharmacy locations.    
In addition, she completed her undergraduate pre-pharmacy coursework at ETSU and holds a Master’s Degree in Business Administration from Milligan University. In 2018, former Gov. Bill Haslam appointed her to one of the highest pharmacy positions in Tennessee— serving on the Tennessee Board of Pharmacy.   

Episode 15 - Meet P3 Carolina Davis who interned at TPA

In this episode, we talk with Carolina Davis, a third-year student pharmacist at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy who recently served as the inaugural Executive Intern at the Tennessee Pharmacists Association (TPA). TPA is a membership organization serving all pharmacy professionals, student pharmacists, and pharmacy technicians in Tennessee and advances, protects, and promotes high-quality pharmacist-provided patient care in the state. Our student pharmacists frequently have opportunities to attend TPA meetings throughout the year, which are important for professional and leadership development.
Transcript:
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, and joining me today is my co-host, Stephen Woodward, our Marketing and Communications Manager.
Stephen WoodwardHi, Stephen.
Carolina DavisHey. Good morning. In this episode, we'll be talking with Carolina Davis, a P3 at Gatton who recently served as the inaugural Executive Intern at the Tennessee Pharmacists Association. TPA is a membership organization serving all pharmacy professionals, student pharmacists, and pharmacy technicians in Tennessee and advances, protects, and promotes high-quality pharmacist-provided patient care in the state. While at the college, Gatton students frequently have opportunities to attend TPA meetings throughout the year, which are important for professional and leadership development. Carolina, welcome to White Coat Radio.
Stephen WoodwardHi. Thanks for having me.
Michele WilliamsSo TPA sounds like a great place to be. Tell us a little bit about the Executive Intern position that you had. And you were the first one, right?
Stephen WoodwardYes. I was the inaugural intern, so there were really no expectations for me when I was going in. And I tried to keep a really open mind. And they sure hit me with a bunch of stuff. My first two days, I felt like I was in a tornado, just learning all of the things that they needed me to do.
But I had the most amazing experience. So one of my biggest projects that I was able to complete while I was there is I drafted the Fellows of TPA program. So it's a program for practicing pharmacists to become a Fellow of the association. So they’re just very committed to the association and kind of the mission of the association. So I was able to draft all of that, and it’s to be presented to the Board of Directors in September, hopefully for approval to kick off the first class of Fellows this year.
Michele WilliamsWow, that sounds really exciting.
Stephen WoodwardYeah, that was great.
Michele WilliamsHow did you wind up in this particular role? How did that experience come about?
Stephen WoodwardSo I've been a member of TSSP, so it's a student society within TPA, since I started at Gatton. I've loved it since I started. I have been a member-at-large for two years, so I've been helping kind of plan all of the meetings and all the student programming from the day I actually started. And so that was really awesome.
And while I was at the Winter Meeting this past year in Nashville, the staff approached me and were like, okay, we think you could do this. You should do it. And I was like, oh, I don't know. That’s a lot.
Michele WilliamsYou’d have to move and, like—
Stephen WoodwardI don’t know. But like, is it paid? I got all of the information, and I applied, and I talked to my mentors about it. What do you think? Do you think this is a good opportunity? Is it really what I want to do long term? But what do you think? Can you do it? And they said never say no to an opportunity like that.
And I’m so glad I didn’t. I’m so glad I said yes and went. So I interviewed, applied, and got the position.
Michele WilliamsThat’s great.
Carolina DavisHow long did it last? And kind of walk us through what the day-to-day looked like.
Stephen WoodwardYeah. So I was there for two months, but moving forward it’s going to be a 12-week program. But I had my rotations already planned and scheduled for May, so I wasn’t able to start until the first week of June and stay to the end of July.
Day to day is not the same when you walk in. So at the beginning, it was very much just getting my bearings, learning kind of how TPA operates. We learned a lot of the differences between TPA as the association and CPRS, which is the Community Pharmacy Research and Education Foundation, which is their 501(c)(3). So anything legislatively, money that goes into the foundation—that’s where all the grants go through.
I was able to learn all of that kind of in the first few weeks that I was there—the history of TPA, who all was there at the beginning making those foundational steps. And I met a lot of people my first two weeks. Really sat down and met with the team and some of her colleagues. I met some pharmacists from across the board. I met with John Cerasuolo, PBM Director at the Department of Commerce and Insurance. So I was able to meet with a lot of people.
Michele WilliamsAnd what is PBM?
Stephen WoodwardThat is Pharmacy Benefit Managers—whose job is to regulate pharmacy benefit managers within the state agency.
Michele WilliamsWow.
Stephen WoodwardYeah. So that’s really great moving forward with the practice of pharmacy. So hopefully we’ll get some more things straightened out through legislation.
But later on, I started helping plan the Summer Meeting. So I was able to make PowerPoints, review slides, review scripts, all of that stuff. So a lot of just baby tasks moving forward. I was working on that Fellows program in the background, trying to get all that done. I had three presentations while I was there—very short ones, just to kind of get some more presentations under my belt, which were really fun.
But yeah, a lot of fun laughs in the office. It was very laid back the whole time.
Michele WilliamsOh, that’s great. Cool. And so what did you learn? What really were the takeaways from this experience for you?
Stephen WoodwardYeah. So I got really great project management skills and kind of like moving in time blocks and not just looking at something for 17 hours and hopefully getting it done. I really solidified that, like, you have two hours to work on it today. If it doesn’t get done, work on it the next day. So I was good at spacing that time out and learned how to do that quickly.
But I also really took away the power of networking and helping people. I think that is such a big, important factor of the profession, because everybody helps everybody in some way, shape, or form. So yeah, being able to network was really important.
And I also really understood how important advocacy is. I always knew that it was important, but I really got into it this time around and saw what all goes into planning for the legislative year and how impactful it is to pharmacists and pharmacy and even patients. So I really enjoyed that kind of knowledge and what to do about it.
Carolina DavisThat sounds really cool.
We’ll talk a little bit about why you want to be a pharmacist and what your goals are now after graduation.
Stephen WoodwardYeah. So I wanted to be a pharmacist when I was like ten years old. My mom has epilepsy, so I have been involved in her care since I was very young. You see all the things that she’s had to go through and how many medicines she has to take. And so since I was little, I was like, oh, that’s crazy.
To figure out how that works—I’m curious how that happens and why is this happening to her, and why can’t she just be fixed? You know, like all of those things. So that was one of the biggest reasons that I wanted to go into pharmacy. And those goals—how to get there—changed along the way.
I kind of started with pharmaceutical research to the brain that way, and then I was like, no, I don’t really like the lab work. And I really like patient care and advocacy that way. Also, my aunt—she was really heavily involved with the opioid epidemic and things like that. So seeing how that played into her life and her children’s lives and then my family as a whole—those things, and just the things that Appalachia has to deal with—have really pushed me into the pharmacy profession. And I’ve accepted it fully. I love it.
So moving forward, I’m working to keep as many doors open as I possibly can to see where the world puts me. But I’m really interested now in ambulatory care, family medicine, and just being a constant in a patient’s life and not having to jump in and out—really helping to find a regimen that works for them and advocating for the patient. So that’s what I’m looking at now, kind of family medicine areas.
I’m also really interested in still being involved with TPA and working—not maybe as a staff member—but definitely as a volunteer leader within TPA. I’d really like to get involved there, hopefully more on the political affairs side and seeing how we can interact with legislators. You know, they’re not scary people. They just have a lot to do.
Michele WilliamsWell, I know whatever it is that you decide to do, you’re going to be awesome at it. And what has been your favorite part of pharmacy school so far?
Stephen WoodwardThat’s such a hard question. I love it all. Even if I say that I’m tired and want to go to bed, I really have loved it.
Honestly, I think just meeting the people in my class and getting to know those people who have been such an impact for me. Seeing all the different walks of life we come from—that’s been something that I’ve really enjoyed, past all of the pharmacy things, I guess. It’s just getting to be really close friends with my classmates. That’s something that I’ve really enjoyed about the journey.
Michele WilliamsThat’s awesome. We really do have some great students.
Stephen WoodwardYes, I agree. And the faculty and staff, too. I think just getting to know them and being close and in-person support from faculty and staff is really cool.
Carolina DavisWhat was it that brought you to Gatton?
Stephen WoodwardWell, I did my undergrad here and played softball there, so I had been here for a hot minute. And I actually met with Julie Hurley when I was 15. She kind of got me into the Gatton loop, and I have loved it ever since.
When I came to interview, the second I stepped over here into Gatton, I felt like people really care about you here. They don’t treat you like a number. They want to know who you are. So that’s why I fell in love with Gatton. It’s just the family aspect and the family atmosphere that’s here within the walls. It feels like home when you walk in—for me.
Michele WilliamsAwesome.
Carolina DavisWhere’s your hometown, and where do you hope to go after you graduate?
Stephen WoodwardYeah. So I’m from Englewood, Tennessee. It’s about an hour south of Knoxville. Really small town, foothills of Appalachia. Tellico Plains is the biggest touristy area around, but it’s not very big at all. So born and raised in Englewood.
I’d love to go back there one day, but residency and things like that—I think I want to get out for a little bit, maybe get some highlights and then come back and serve the people of Appalachia. Ultimately, I want to end up back in the place where I was raised to help the people that raised me.
Michele WilliamsThat’s great. That’s terrific. And so, as you know, our P1s have just started. What advice would you give a P1 who’s just starting here at Gatton?
Stephen WoodwardI have so much to say in a few months, and I tell them every time I see them. But I think the biggest piece of advice that I would have for anyone coming into any pharmacy school ever is to do things that get you out of that normal pharmacy student silo. So take opportunities. Be involved in extracurriculars.
Do things that would set you apart from just your normal pharmacy student. Because everybody can do that. Everybody here has gotten accepted. Everybody can be a pharmacy student once they’re here. It’s what sets you apart from those people. And I think, like I said, getting out of the pharmacy silo is something that’s really important—taking those opportunities when they come.
Michele WilliamsThat’s some amazing advice. I think that’s great advice. And I hope our P1s listen to this and take that to heart. That makes so much sense.
Carolina DavisAn opportunity like going to TPA and being the inaugural Executive Intern.
Stephen WoodwardYeah, I know. That is one that’s on my résumé forever.
Carolina DavisThat’s pretty cool.
Stephen WoodwardI definitely think that that’s such a great opportunity, and it’s going to be there for a long time. So in your P1 summer or P2 summer, it’s an open opportunity to any of the six pharmacy schools across the state. So anybody can apply for the position.
Michele WilliamsWell, you’ve got it off to a great start.
Stephen WoodwardI hope so.
Michele WilliamsThanks so much for joining us today and for sharing your experience with us. It’s been terrific.
Stephen WoodwardYeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
 
 
 

Episode 14 - Interview with Mary Little about disability services at ETSU

In this episode, we talk with Mary Little, Director of Disability Services at East Tennessee State University. Little is the point of contact and a vital resource for our students and faculty when determining student eligibility for accommodations at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy.
 
Transcript:
 
Michele WilliamsWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, and I'm joined today by a new co-host.
Michele WilliamsOur regular co-host, Dan Vanzant, will be working remotely for the next year or so. Stephen Woodward, our marketing and communications manager, has agreed to co-host with me during Dan’s absence. Welcome, Stephen.
Stephen WoodwardThank you. It's good to be here.
Michele WilliamsSo in this episode, we'll be talking with Mary Little, director of disability services at ETSU. Mary Little is a point of contact and a vital resource for our students and faculty with regard to determining student eligibility for accommodations here at Gatton. So she's our go‑to person. If someone needs an accommodation, Mary, welcome to White Coat Radio.
Mary LittleThank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Stephen WoodwardSo your full title is Director of Disability Services and ADA/504 Coordinator. Can you just tell us a little bit more about what your office does?
Michele WilliamsSure.
Mary LittleOur primary responsibility is to provide accommodations to students with disabilities. The ADA coordinator piece of my job is also to provide accommodations to faculty and staff with disabilities, and also to interact with facilities on our physical campus. But the biggest thing we are doing is providing accommodations for students across campus.
Michele WilliamsThat's great.
Mary LittleAnd that's all students—graduate students, undergraduates, medical school students, pharmacy students.
Michele WilliamsSo we've used the word "accommodation" a lot. What exactly is an accommodation? And if I'm a student—a pharmacy student—how do I know that I need an accommodation while I'm in pharmacy school?
Mary LittleOkay. What's an accommodation? In a perfect world, everything would be completely accessible. Nobody would have a hard time getting in the door or upstairs or accessing online materials. But there are many things that are not accessible. And where access is not, an accommodation is needed to make that bridge so that the person with a disability can access it as well.
Mary LittleSo that's what an accommodation is in the short version. If you have had—if you have any kind of disability, or if you are a student and perhaps you had some assistance going through K through 12 and high school, it's really worth it to reach out to our office and talk that through. You may be eligible for an accommodation.
Mary LittleAnd we can help you with that. So if you have any kind of disability—we’re serving all kinds of disabilities. People often think disability means people in wheelchairs. It does, but it also means all kinds of disabilities. We have a huge number of students with medical disabilities. I'm always surprised by that, I guess, by the number of students who have chronic medical issues. But no, there's mental health, there's learning disabilities, autism, all kinds of ADHD.
Mary LittleSo it's a wide range of disabilities. So if you have any of those things and you think that it might be impacting you in any way in your academics, it's worth it to talk to us.
Michele WilliamsOkay. Okay.
Stephen WoodwardJust to play devil's advocate for a moment—would asking for an accommodation be a way just to get an advantage on an exam?
Mary LittleNo, I'm glad you asked that question, but it's absolutely not that. And an example I would say is—we all wear glasses and we don't think a thing about it. We wouldn't think to take an exam without our glasses, because we wouldn't be able to access that. We can put our glasses on and we can. So the accommodations are simply that—they're leveling the playing field for the person with the disability.
Stephen WoodwardSo what is an invisible disability?
Mary LittleSo invisible disabilities are the ones that are not readily obvious. If you see a person in a wheelchair, you know they have a disability. A deaf student may have an interpreter with them. A blind student often uses a cane. So the invisible disabilities—which is actually the vast majority of students with disabilities—it's all the chronic medical, mental health, the learning disabilities, the things that would not be obvious in just seeing a person or talking with them.
Stephen WoodwardThank you.
Michele WilliamsSo if a student thinks they might have a disability that could be accommodated, do they need to wait until they start making failing grades—or non‑passing grades as we say in parentheses—before they look into getting an accommodation?
Mary LittleYeah, that's a great question. And the answer is no. Don't wait. Come and see us. Really, when you begin school, it's a good time to just talk about it. I encourage students who have disabilities—and a lot of freshmen think they want to come and try it without—but I encourage them to establish the safety net.
Mary LittleYou don't have to use accommodations even if you have been made eligible for them. So it's important for a student to have the safety net. And I would recommend they use them as they get their feet under them, because if you're not eligible for them, there's nothing I can do for you after you've failed the test.
Mary LittleBut if you are eligible for extended time on an exam, for instance, and you don't use it, nobody may understand. So I would say absolutely don't do that. I don't understand the math in this, but a bad grade hurts you more than a good grade does you good.
Michele WilliamsSo yeah. And in pharmacy school, there's not a huge amount of time to correct—to correct the problem. So being prepared, and if you think you might have a disability, it sounds like it's a good idea to get in touch with your office to make sure.
Mary LittleAbsolutely.
Michele WilliamsAnd if I'm a student who has an accommodation, do I have to tell my professor I have a disability? And will my fellow students know I have a disability?
Mary LittleSo when you request accommodations, you're establishing the idea that you have a disability. When I communicate the accommodations to your faculty, that's what I communicate—the accommodations.
Michele WilliamsOkay.
Mary LittleSo there's no disclosure from me or my office about what the disability is or why that's needed. It's just—that’s sort of what we're tasked with, being the clearinghouse for the documentation and having read it and knowing that it means this. And then I can just tell faculty this is what we need to do.
Mary LittleSo they're going to know there is a disability, but they're not going to know the specifics. And your peers are not going to know that either.
Michele WilliamsOkay. Good to know. And if I think I might need an accommodation for pharmacy school, how do I get in touch with you? What's the easiest way? Do I call your office? Do I go to the Disability Services website at ETSU, or how do I do that?
Mary LittleYou can do any of those.
Michele WilliamsOkay.
Mary LittleWe are located on the third floor of the Culp Center, and you are welcome to drop by. Our phone number is (423) 439‑8346. And you can absolutely give us a call. You can email disabilityservices@etsu.edu. You can go to our webpage and do the application, and then we'll contact you. So really any of those things work, and we respond to all of them.
Michele WilliamsGreat. One other tip—you can also go see Doctor Williams at the College of Pharmacy, and she'll give you Mary Little’s card. And then you'll have it there.
Mary LittleYeah.
Stephen WoodwardWhat's your favorite thing about your job?
Mary LittleOh wow. I would say my favorite thing is the creativity of it. It is not a job where one size fits all. There's no two people that are the same. Two people can have the same disability—it’s not going to be the same. They're not in the same program. And there's never a shortage of things we've not heard of before, a need we've not done before, or a new disability we've not heard of before or worked with before.
Mary LittleSo I love that you have to think on your feet. And you need to like doing that piece, which I do.
Stephen WoodwardOn the flip side of that, what's the biggest challenge that you face on a daily basis?
Mary LittleGosh, you know… so the disabilities in and of themselves are not so much the issue. I think we're at a really interesting time as a country and as a university where things are really changing. You know, we talk about equity and things like that, and disability is a piece of that. And so moving from a place of compliance to true accessibility—I think we're on that path.
Mary LittleAnd so it's a challenge and it's an exciting thing both.
Michele WilliamsAnd you were talking about that one of your favorite things is being creative. And I know from my interactions with you that you're a really good problem solver. And one thing that's come up recently that I hadn't really thought about before—that you and I have worked on, that you and Doctor Alexander have worked on—are accommodations for students who are going on clinical rotations, particularly the advanced experiences, the APPEs.
Michele WilliamsSo can you talk a little bit about what students should do if they feel like the accommodations that they’re getting in the classroom—they may need some other version of that out in the field, in a clinic, or in that sort of environment?
Mary LittleYeah, I think it's really important—really for maybe any student who is receiving academic accommodations—to maybe touch base with you, to touch base with me, and say: we're getting ready to go into these clinical experiences; how is this going to translate? And is there something we need to do? So the academic accommodations are under Title II of the ADA, and then workplace accommodations are under Title I of ADA.
Michele WilliamsMakes sense, yeah.
Mary LittleSo the process is the same—it's just a different law and a different way of navigating it. But there may be things that you didn't need in the classroom that you will need in the work world, or vice versa. So I would almost say anybody who is getting ready to do those rotations—APPEs—that's getting accommodations, it would be worth touching base with you and me to talk that through.
Michele WilliamsThat's good to know, because I think students get very focused on the academic accommodations. They want to make sure they have what they need for exam time and those kinds of things, but they don't think ahead to—especially students maybe with medical accommodations—that when they get into a clinical setting, some of that may translate into that setting, but that requires a greater degree of preparation.
Michele WilliamsIt seems like, than extra time on a test or something like that.
Mary LittleYeah. I guess, you know, the different pharmacies are set up differently. And working with Doctor Alexander has been a great experience for me. She knows the different ones and what they have and what they are strong in. And you can select them based on what you're trying to accommodate. A person might be best served in one setting over another.
Mary LittleSo—and I think the other piece of that is equipping the students for knowing how to advocate once they are in the work world, and how to ask for accommodations, and to know that as a person with a disability, you have certain rights. You're not asking for a favor or anything like that. But knowing how to do that with confidence and respect—you know, sometimes just counseling on that is helpful.
Michele WilliamsYeah. And so talking to you about that can be really helpful, too, so that they're sort of equipped when they get out into the working world. It almost seems like preparing in that way for an IPPE or definitely an APPE gets you ready for moving into your career and making sure you have what you need to be successful.
Mary LittleYeah, absolutely. That's great.
Stephen WoodwardDo our alumni have access to your services after they graduate?
Mary LittleI have talked to people—not at the same level as a student one—but I think the university is always a resource to alumni, if I'm not mistaken.
Stephen WoodwardWe can cut that out.
Mary LittleYeah, you might want to cut that out.
Stephen WoodwardAll right, Dan, cut that out.
Mary LittleI also might want to cut out when I said "equity" there on our school anyway.
Michele WilliamsMight. Yeah. Yeah.
Stephen WoodwardSo okay.
Michele WilliamsAnd so I'm going to pause for a minute and then may ask you a question about assistive technology. So what if I need some assistive technology in the classroom? What kinds of technology are available to students with disabilities? And how does that work?
Mary LittleSo it's such a broad landscape, you know, of disability, and therefore what technology would be helpful. But I'll talk about the things that are kind of really cool. So a lot of students will have trouble note‑taking, which is a complicated process, right? If you're listening, distilling, writing, all at the same time. And if you're a person with a disability or something like that, it can really slow you down.
Mary LittleSo we offer note‑taking software.
Michele WilliamsWhat is a print disability? Like dyslexia?
Mary LittleAnything, you know, where you are not processing printed word as quickly. Yeah. So we offer note‑taking software to a lot of people, but there's also the LiveScribe pens, which just look like a pen. They're the coolest thing, right? They just look like a pen, but it interfaces with the internet. And you're taking notes and you know it's recording, and then you—
Michele WilliamsSync it with your computer?
Mary Little—in Evernote, which is where it works perfectly. And you hear the professor lecturing and your handwriting is magically appearing on the computer screen. And it's "Oh, here we go to that glitch where I zoned out for a minute," and I can fill that in because I'm hearing it again. You upload it and it's there. That's very cool too.
Mary LittleYou know, that does sound cool.
Michele WilliamsYeah, I think other students might be interested in that too.
Stephen WoodwardI'd like to get one of those.
Michele WilliamsYeah. Yeah.
Mary LittleI have an attorney friend who uses it for all kinds of stuff. But I mean, you know, yeah—buy him one. But the other thing we got recently is a reader pen. So again, students who have difficulty learning disabilities—previously the accommodation might be a reader as needed on an exam. So this is a person who's reading in our office.
Mary LittleWe do like to encourage technology largely because you're not going to want to ask a person to read things on your job. So the more tools you have and the more you know how to use them—the more independent you are. Makes sense, right? So the reader pen looks kind of like a highlighter, and you can go over printed material and it will read it out loud.
Mary LittleThat is cool.
Michele WilliamsAnd do you have that equipment over at Disability Services?
Mary LittleWe do. In fact, you can take a picture of it, translate it to another language, and then have it read it to you.
Michele WilliamsInteresting.
Mary LittleYeah. Wow. Traveling—you might want one. But I mean, a lot of students might have use for something like that.
Michele WilliamsWell, that's great. Is there anything else about getting an accommodation or advocating for yourself as a student, or anything else about the kinds of things that your office does, that you would like for our students to know?
Mary LittleI guess the biggest thing I would like students to know is, again, you're not asking for a favor. You're just asking for the thing that makes it level—just like using a step ladder or glasses. And it's no more than that. So I would love for students to assimilate that and feel comfortable with themselves and with that.
Mary LittleOther than that, I would say, if you think you need help, please come see us early and let's work together to put in place what you need. If you need documentation, you know, we can explain what would be needed because it's going to depend on—if it's a medical disability, it'll be a doctor's letter, or if it's a mental health disorder, maybe your therapist is writing your letter.
Mary LittleOr maybe you've had an evaluation at the Behavioral Health and Wellness Clinic on main campus. So it would depend. And the earlier you talk to us, the earlier we can get everything into the pipeline.
Michele WilliamsSo you help give students advice on what it is that they need and how to do that.
Mary LittleYes.
Michele WilliamsHow to do that. That's great. Well, Mary, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really, really helpful. And hopefully students will take the step and reach out to your office and make sure they get those accommodations when they need them.
Mary LittleWell, thank you very much for having me. It's great to work with the pharmacy school. Thank you.
 

Episode 12 - "POGIL", what is it, and what to expect as a student with Dr. Stacy Brown

In this episode, we talk with Dr. Stacy Brown, Professor of Pharmaceutical Sciences at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy about the Process Oriented Guided Inquiry or "POGIL" teaching strategy.  In addition to being a POGIL expert, Dr. Brown is an award-winning educator and researcher.  She teaches Medical Biochemistry and Medicinal Chemistry and serves as the Interim Chair of the Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences at Gatton.  
Transcript:
Dan VanZantWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode will cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. We are your hosts, Dan VanZant.
Michele WilliamsAnd I'm Doctor Michele Williams, director of academic success. In this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Stacy Brown, professor of pharmaceutical sciences at Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Doctor Brown teaches medical biochemistry and medicinal chemistry and serves as the interim chair of pharmaceutical sciences. She's also an award‑winning educator and researcher. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Brown.
Michele WilliamsThank you very much. So we all know you as the coordinator for the chemistry courses in the P1 year, but you are also our resident expert on teaching with an instructional model known as POGIL. Can you tell us a little bit about what POGIL is and why you use it?
Stacey BrownOkay. So POGIL—the acronym stands for Process Oriented Guided Inquiry Learning. And so this is a student‑centered, group learning teaching strategy. It was developed back in the 1990s by some chemists at a smaller university, intended to help students learn chemistry. So that's the framework where it originated. But now it’s expanded to all different— all kinds of different fields.
And in a POGIL classroom, the students are working in small teams, and the instructor is the facilitator. So there's not a lot of lecturing, not a lot of slides and things like that. What they're working on are very specifically designed exercises that take them through the learning cycle. And so you give them data of some sort—a figure. I use chemical structures all the time. Sometimes there's a table, and you use guided questions to help them look at that model or that information.
So we would call this just the exploration phase. They’re looking at the model. They're answering questions. And sometimes the questions look super easy. But the whole point is to make them look at it and say, what kind of information can I get out of this? I mean, even as simple as—if it’s a graph—what are the axes? You know, what is this graph of?
So they explore the model and then eventually they go to a phase called concept invention, where they try to see some trends in the information and then come up with some sort of hypothesis. So the idea is that you've followed kind of the scientific method with this.
So they come up with a hypothesis to explain the model, maybe generalize what they're seeing. This is the concept that we're trying to get at. And then finally they're going to apply that concept. So now we have our idea, and I'm going to throw some new information at you in an application question, and you're going to see how the concept works.
So that’s what the classroom looks like. The process part is a little bit harder to quantify and to assess, but there are tools for that. And those processes are very intentional. They include oral and written communication, teamwork, time management, problem solving, critical thinking, and assessment work—both self‑assessment and metacognition.
And so there are rubrics from the POGIL project, which maintains all of the resources for this strategy, to assess each of these things. If you have an activity that's really focused on critical thinking, there's a rubric to go along with that so you can see how well your students are doing.
But as far as why I use this—I started teaching in a chemistry department at another university. It was a military college, and that will be important later. But when I first started teaching, I just did exactly what I had seen as a student. And I was a good student and did fine. So whatever that was, I thought, well, this must be the perfect way.
But my students were really doing poorly, and they were the lowest cohort of Gen Chem students in the department among six or seven instructors. Mine were like a full standard deviation below everybody else. And so I thought, okay, maybe I should quit my job because I'm awful at this. And my chair talked me out of it and said, no—you’re not awful. You just don’t know how to do it yet.
And so she sent me to some training at an American Chemical Society meeting. And I learned about POGIL there. And I just signed up for something random. I didn’t—I was like, okay, well, you sent me. Let me do something while I'm here. And it was sort of a transformative moment because I said, oh my gosh—first of all, sorry, but all the teachers I had before were not doing a good job. Because I stood at the chalkboard, you know, and wrote things. Or stood at an overhead projector and wrote things.
And so I came back to my job and I said, okay, I'm going to do this totally different. It's going to be awesome. And it—it was. Wow. It was really good. But I had a lot of pushback from the students, like, whoa, what are you doing? And even from some of the other faculty because they thought I had gone off the deep end with my ideas.
But it was working really well for my students. They kind of turned their ship around. And then when I came here, I said, I'm going to bring this strategy with me because it worked really well. And I was the only person—the first person—to ever teach a class. So there was no precedent. I could do whatever I wanted, and it was all mine.
So slowly I developed activities to go with medicinal chemistry. And then now I'm working on biochemistry.
Michele WilliamsSo have you gotten any pushback from students here—either when you first started using it or at the beginning of a new semester? Do students get a little freaked out about this model? Or are you experienced enough with it now that you sort of take care of that before it starts?
Stacey BrownInitially in a few—it would—the pushback would only come in the form of evaluations at the end of the semester. Like, “I'm not paying all this money to teach myself.” Like—okay, well, that’s fine. That’s not what happened, but that’s okay.
And so now I just sort of preface everything in the first class. I just tell them, like, look, I want everybody to succeed. I don't have a preconceived notion of, “We're going to give out this many A’s and this many B’s.” I want you all to know this stuff. And this is the way that I've learned—and research supports it. And if you like reading research papers, I can provide those. That helps you.
And then, you know, I often have individual groups in each classroom that don’t like to sort of coalesce together and work together. And I just try to encourage them a little bit more—like learning is a community thing. And it's so much easier if you have that community to support you. So let this be your little community while you're in here. And maybe you don't study with these people later. That's okay. But while you're working through this stuff—
So I don't get a lot of pushback anymore. But initially I did, and I really did when I first started. But I also think I startled them.
Michele WilliamsBy—like, that's a big change.
Stacey BrownYeah, it was a huge change. Yeah.
Dan VanZantSo it seems like you make chemistry less daunting. And you have a very high reputation amongst your students. So how do you achieve that? How do you do that?
Stacey BrownYeah. Well, I don't know that I help them love it, but my goal is to build their confidence with it. Because—I took medicinal chemistry with the pharmacy students at the University of Georgia. So I was a PhD student, but in that program PhD students and pharmacy students are on the same track for the first year, and then they diverge.
In my med chem class, all we did was memorize structures. That is—we drew them and we identified them by the way they looked. And that is all we ever did. And I thought—that is a waste of time. And we're not going to do that in my med chem class.
So I’ve thought a lot over the years about what information you can get from a chemical structure that would help you understand that drug. Because they're going to see new drugs in their career. And I want them to be able to use all the information about it—not just the clinical trials, not just maybe the kinetics and the package insert—but even look at the structure and say, oh gosh, I understand why we have to give this IV. Or I understand why you only get this once every six months. Or whatever it is—you can find those data in the structures.
So that's what I set out to build their confidence in. You're not going to memorize stuff for the sake of memorizing it. It's all about learning a handful of tools and then just applying them to new situations.
So building their confidence that they can use information in the chemical structures—and then keeping their morale high. And this is what I learned teaching in a military college—that if their morale is low, and they're scared and nervous about the content, and they're nervous about their ability to do it—that is a huge roadblock to success.
So despite how high‑achieving they might be—if their morale is low about that ability—they won’t be as successful.
So learning the value of morale is another thing that’s applicable to any class. But it really helps with the chemistry stuff because many students do come in with a lot of trepidation about it.
Michele WilliamsYou know, you're saying that really makes a lot of sense to me in the context of talking to students individually. Because they talk about their past struggles with chemistry and so forth. But when they get into your class—after they've been in there for a little while—I don't really hear that from them anymore.
And it can be incredibly discouraging if you don't do well on an exam—particularly for pharmacy students. They come to pharmacy school having been good students, and they are not accustomed to getting failing grades or non‑passing grades. And for any of us, it puts a big dent in your confidence.
So it makes a lot of sense to hear you say that you work on their morale and confidence, because that does seem to be part of the transformation they make when they get into your class. They seem less discouraged, which I think is huge.
The motivation—if you don't, first of all, have a need to know—which it sounds like in your description of understanding the structures versus memorizing them—built into that is a need to know. Why do pharmacists need to know chemical structures? And that's why.
But also the idea of: you can do this, you should be confident in your ability to do it. And just listening to you talk to students actually makes me a little jealous because I'm thinking—I wish Dr. Brown had taught me chemistry. I would have felt a lot more confident in my abilities.
But when you talk to students—that’s why I encourage them to come see you—because that can be transformational. Just to have that conversation with the expert and understand, “Oh—I can do this. I think I can do this.”
So yeah, that makes so much sense. Now you're in that room with them the whole time.
Dan VanZantYeah, I can relate to that too. With my chemistry class—or several classes—you have a topic that's known to be difficult, and then you mix that with a professor that doesn't seem to care about your morale or give you the “can‑do” attitude. And it really makes a difference in being able to learn the material.
And then also the application piece is huge. Every time I've had a professor who has gone the extra mile and shown how it fits into this broader picture—it really is helpful and meaningful.
Stacey BrownAnd I can't do much of the application stuff in the first year just because I don't have the clinical background yet. But then, through the other courses—where we teach along with the therapy and pharmacology—I’m always in touch with the clinical instructors to help me identify some good application things.
For example, in infectious disease, they might talk about which antibiotics you're going to give orally and which are IV only. And I can do that in the med chem portion of it. So we can learn to look at the structures and decode that. Then they're not just memorizing the list—they say, “Oh, okay, I remember that chemical feature that made this one restricted to IV only versus oral.”
So I'm always trying to weave those real applications in. Because I'm not a pharmacist. But I happen to know a few. And they help me figure out how to get the chemistry in there.
Michele WilliamsOkay. Great.
Dan VanZantAlso—thinking about the structures. When I was taking some of these classes—nobody had an iPhone in their pocket. And as I recall, we did have the little model kits that we'd have to put together and look at structures that way.
We were just getting into having computers where we could kind of look at some of those—if you were fortunate enough to have one in your dorm. But now that we have all this technology—have you found any apps or do you use any apps in class that help students visualize structures?
Stacey BrownI personally don't use a lot of that kind of thing. I provide all of those resources—figures and things like that—but I don't have any apps that necessarily help them.
What you're talking about is more like in organic chemistry—you would look at the three‑dimensional space that a molecule fills. And I guess you can still do that—and you could probably find those images pretty easily now, where before you would have had to physically build them.
But they probably are more aware, honestly, of different apps than I am. I just self‑generate what they experience.
Michele WilliamsSo you mentioned that you teach further into the curriculum. The students will see you again in various classes. And you mentioned infectious diseases. What other classes do you teach in, as well as those first‑year classes?
Stacey BrownSo I'm in every semester now. Infectious diseases and pulmonary for the P2s in the fall. And then for the P3s in the fall—the endocrine and men’s and women’s health course, neuro psych, and GI—which is actually P2 now. I'm a little discombobulated about where they fit.
Then for the spring P2s—I have cardiovascular. And for the P3s in the spring—I see them in the oncology course and in critical care. And if I'm missing one, I apologize.
Michele WilliamsThose sounds like a lot.
Stacey BrownBut it's really fun to see that progression through the curriculum. Because especially starting in med chem with P1s—we’re working on very fundamental things: functional groups, what's an acid and a base. And then I see them in spring P3 and I'm not—and I give almost zero instruction at that point. There's no preface. They just come in and start working.
And they’re sitting there debating in that critical care activity I have—it’s a toxicology one. They’re debating, like: “Okay, which antidote is better for this type of cyanide poisoning?” Or “Is Narcan the best choice, or is there something else?”
It’s just fun to hear them having these conversations. And it's all predicated on their understanding of the chemistry. But I didn't tell them anything about it. They're just coming up with it because they have the background.
So it's really awesome to watch them grow. And I always compliment them. I'm like, “You're so smart. Look at you having all these smart conversations. And two years ago you were trying to figure out what's a carboxylic acid.”
Michele WilliamsThat's the astonishing thing about pharmacy school—the development of a person’s expertise over such a short period of time. They just transform into pharmacists. It's pretty cool.
Stacey BrownYeah. And teaching every semester—I get to witness that happening. It’s awesome. I love it.
Michele WilliamsSo if we think about the P1s for a minute—if you were giving advice to a P1 about what they need to be successful in medical biochemistry or medicinal chemistry, what bits of advice would you have?
Stacey BrownWell, I do—on the syllabus—for each class—I have pre‑work. And it's usually just…the idea is that you preview the content. You don't turn anything in. I just want you to look at it and start to generate a little bit of action in your brain about it.
So: preview the content a few minutes before class. Just look at it. And then when you come to class—in the P1 courses—I do preface the activities with some lecture. So I'm like, “Okay, here's the terms we're going to use. Here's some framework for you to build on.” And then I—wean them off of that over time. But because they need some foundation, I give them some content.
Then for the group activities—my advice is to come to participate. You have the time set aside. You’re paying for that time. It is for learning. So use it. Use your classmates. Use me. Don’t squander it by shopping on Amazon or whatever distraction. Use the time because you will learn during that time—and it will be easier than trying to learn later in your apartment on your own.
Michele WilliamsAmen.
Stacey BrownI always liken it to going to the gym. You've paid a personal trainer. You go to the gym. And you're just standing off to the side watching, not doing anything. What a waste.
And we talk even on the first day of biochemistry about skill‑building: Who plays a sport? Who plays an instrument? Who does technical crafts? And getting them to think about how they learned those things: by doing them. Not by reading about them.
Same applies here. You can’t just read the book and get the same level of understanding that you would get if you actually do the work.
Michele WilliamsYeah. That makes so much sense. And I concur with you. Students underestimate sometimes the value in previewing the work before class. They are saving so much time and getting so much more out of class by priming their brain.
Trying to learn the same amount later at home isn’t the same—and it won’t stick as well.
Stacey BrownYeah. It just feels better to know what’s going on. It feels terrible to walk into a room where everyone else seems to know what’s happening and you don’t. You can prevent that feeling.
Michele WilliamsIt’s like one of those bad dreams where you show up not wearing shoes or something.
Stacey BrownRight. And you're the only one. You’re not ready.
Dan VanZantIs this exam day one?
Michele WilliamsYeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation, and we really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for joining us.
Stacey BrownAll right. Thank you.
 
 

Episode 11 - What to expect in Infectious Disease with Dr. David Cluck

On this episode, Dan and Michele talk with Dr. David Cluck, Associate Professor in the Department of Pharmacy Practice at ETSU Gatton College of Pharmacy.  He specializes in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy, and is the course coordinator for the Infectious Diseases course in the Integrated Series  Dr. Cluck shares his advice for success in this challenging course! 
Transcript:
Dan VanzantWelcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty to pharmacists. We're your hosts, Dan Vanzant, and I'm—
Michele WilliamsDoctor Michele Williams. Today we'll be talking with Doctor David Cluck, associate professor in the Department of Pharmacy Practice. He specializes in infectious diseases pharmacotherapy and is the course coordinator for the ID course in the integrated series here at Gatton, which students take in fall of their P2 year. Doctor Cluck maintains a clinical pharmacy practice with the Infectious Diseases Consult Service at Johnson City Medical Center.
In this episode, we'll talk with Doctor Cluck about his course and get some advice on how students can get the most out of it. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Cluck.
David CluckThank you. Thank you for having me.
Michele WilliamsSo let's talk about your course a little. Some students can be a bit intimidated by ID. What makes this content so challenging?
David CluckI think that it's challenging for a number of reasons. I think that the transition from the P1 to P2 year, which we're going to talk about, is pretty staggering for a lot of students. You sort of delve into clinical‑based scenarios. The clinical questions—I think that alone probably intimidates students the most—is the questions and just not being familiar with how to approach those types of questions.
Michele WilliamsThe dreaded case‑based question.
David CluckThe case‑based questions, yeah. And then I think the material in and of itself is just difficult. I think it's not something that—most students have seen Medical Micro, but that may have been some time ago. And then to look at it through a clinical lens, I think, makes it all the more difficult.
And then I tell students in the course, usually in the first week, it's a lot of volume. It's a lot of volume, especially in the first exam. You need to spend a lot of time with it. It's a lot of memorization. So dividing up your studying and having good study habits—that’s revisiting over time leading up to the exam.
But I think all those things kind of collapse into one and make it a really challenging, challenging content, challenging course. I don't know—I think every student's different. I think every student probably looks at it differently. Some students might not have the same fear about case‑based questions. They may be good test takers. But the content again in and of itself is still a challenge for a lot of people.
Michele WilliamsIt’s a course—from my experience working with students—where it's a bad idea to get behind.
David CluckI would agree. Yeah, I would agree. I try to tell students as well, don’t wait until a couple of days before the exam. I think this is a course that—so many students find out their study habits leading up to ID and then subsequent integrated series courses—you can't do the same things and get away with studying for 2 or 3 days really hard and skipping class and that be sufficient. So yeah, I agree it's a challenge.
Dan VanzantYeah. So, what P1 course or courses are most connected to ID?
David CluckSo I think the P1 course for me that's probably the most connected is probably not the one that's the most obvious. And I would say UTC. And the reason I think it's UTC is because I think that is the introduction where you start to see case‑based questions. Students have to reason through why selecting this therapy over other available therapies listed, and why it's correct and what's most correct.
I think that's kind of a sneak peek as to what you get when you begin the integrated series. I do think immunology does kind of come back, but it's not realized until probably the P3 year when you get into HIV and some of the concepts in the IHOP course.
Michele WilliamsSo it sounds like that memorization—the fundamental facts you learn at the very beginning of the course—does factor into being able to answer case‑based questions, because you have to apply what you know to a case.
David CluckI think so. I think that UTC, again, is kind of the first introduction into case‑based questions. Then you get into ID and you see really a lot of case‑based questions. And I often say—tell students—that once you make it through my course, prepare yourself for all subsequent courses because you're going to see case‑based questions in every other course moving forward.
So I do think, yeah, there is application that they carry with them. Whether they fully appreciate that, I don't know. I do have students that come back to me—more so in the P4 year, not after the P3 year. In the P4 year, they appreciate what was talked about in ID. They say, “I’ve been on rotation and all those things we talked about in class—it’s been a little while—but it's kind of come full circle.”
Michele WilliamsWell, you offered a really great segue to the next question, which is: What courses in the curriculum does ID prepare students for? So in the spring of P2 and then into the P3 year and P4.
David CluckI think the answer is all of them, at least in the integrated series. Because ID is essentially in every integrated series course. It presents itself in every course—to my knowledge. It might not be taught by me, but it is in every other course.
And I think a few years back I remember hearing some students say that for IHOP in particular—don't neglect ID. It kind of represents itself. And if you've slept on it, well, it does present itself in the curriculum in our courses. But it's only in sort of bite‑size amounts.
So I think some students might say, “Well, 7 to 10 questions versus 20 questions on neuro psych,” and so it's easy to say, “This is not my priority.” But I do think remembering concepts from ID is important through the didactic portion and especially important for rotations.
One of the things I tell learners—I just told this to students recently—ID will find you. It doesn't matter where you go. You can avoid my rotation and go with Dr. Chair or Dr. Covert and I guarantee you'll see plenty of ID.
So ID is important right at the beginning because it represents itself over and over again—even beyond the classroom.
Michele WilliamsAnd I really liked what you touched on just a minute ago—counting up the number of questions represented by a subject. I think that can be a recipe for disaster. Saying “There are only five ID questions, so I'll focus on the others.”
Well, ID will find you, as you just said.
But also, that’s a grade‑based orientation versus a learning‑based orientation. You have to learn everything to be a competent pharmacist. So I’m glad you touched on that—because a lot of students use that strategy and then wind up coming to see me because they're not doing well in certain subjects.
Michele WilliamsSo, thank you for bringing that up.
What are some things that you see students doing in class where you think, “Yes, that student is doing well,” and that bodes well for their grade? Are there things you see students doing that are a recipe for success?
David CluckI think the answer here is—I’m not really 100% sure. And I say that because there's so much heterogeneity. Everybody’s different—how people process things.
Students come see me and say, “This is not sticking—what can I do?” So we walk through strategies. For some students it’s making note cards. But I usually say be wary of note cards—you can spend all your time making them and then have one day to use them. Not a great use of time.
What I usually tell students—and it’s not their favorite answer—is: put it into your own system.
If that means making study guides, rewriting notes, highlighting them—do what works for you. I had a student years ago with at least ten colors of highlighter. Everything highlighted. She’d come into my office and say, “Pink means this, blue means this…” If it works—great.
But I can't say, “If you do this one thing, you'll be successful.” I don't have that.
David CluckSome students seek additional resources—bug‑drug guides, cheat sheets online. I would say that’s helpful for some, but be cautious. As a student, you don’t know what's good and what’s validated. Something may not line up with what’s in my notes—and then you're frustrated. I've seen that happen.
I’m always happy to validate something and say, “Yes, use that,” or “No, don’t use that.” But ID sits in this tricky space—lots of info online, but not all of it is good.
So my best answer is: it depends on the student.
Michele WilliamsI agree—it depends on whether you're someone who processes by talking or by writing. Some students need time alone before joining a study group. Some jump right in. You have to know that about yourself.
And yes—students can always come see me if they want help learning their learning style. We can talk through what’s worked before and adapt it.
And I also agree about Quizlet. Using someone else's cards can be risky. They might match the notes—or they might reflect someone who made a D in the course.
ID is one of those courses where if you don't know yourself as a learner, it’s time to figure that out fast.
David CluckYeah. When I was a student, I didn’t really get the benefit of group learning until maybe P3. And I realized—I missed out. But you can’t come into a group having studied nothing. You won’t contribute—you’ll panic.
I see that sometimes in review sessions—a day or two before the exam. Panic rising because there’s an area they didn’t spend time on.
I endorse group learning—but you need to know where you are before engaging.
Michele WilliamsIt can have a counter‑effect otherwise.
David CluckIt will not be good.
Dan VanzantYeah—you can't ask other people during the test what they know. You’re by yourself.
Michele WilliamsRight.
Dan VanzantSo if I may—since I'm the ID person (instructional design, not infectious disease!)—do you have any tools that are your go‑to if you need to refresh your memory? Maybe something from when you were a student that stuck with you?
David CluckIt’s a tricky question because the temptation for students is to download the Sanford Guide. And that’s just… too much. We live in a world where everything is an app now.
When I was a student—this will make me sound old—we didn’t have all this. Smartphones existed, but the app ecosystem wasn’t what it is now. I carried the Sanford Guide around.
But Sanford is too much for a P2 student. I would NOT purchase it yet.
There are things out there that are good—Quizlet, ID Stewardship, bug‑drug charts online. But I don’t have one source I point to as “the thing.”
And honestly—reach out to me. Email, Teams—whatever. Sometimes it's just better to come talk to me. Email can become a novella. It’s easier in person.
Last year I had structured hours where students could come in. I’ll do that again. I also hold review sessions before most exams. And students who’ve been through ID will tell you: go to the review session.
I’m always mystified that it’s not the whole class. But people have jobs and obligations, so it’s recorded. Still—you miss the chance to privately message questions.
And that is something students love—anonymity. No one sees the question but me. And if one student has the question—ten others do too.
Michele WilliamsI love that. Students really do struggle to ask a question when they think they’re the only one. The private message option is brilliant.
And you're right—when several people ask the same question, that tells the instructor something. It helps us see where the gap is. Students don’t always realize that their questions help us teach better.
David CluckYeah. I can usually tell in person from body language. Zoom made that harder. But in class—I can see on their faces when something isn't landing.
Dan VanzantShifting in the seat, yeah.
David CluckYes.
Michele WilliamsDo you have any other questions, Dan?
Dan VanzantNope, I'm good.
Michele WilliamsWell, thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Cluck. This has been great. And I learned some things about ID that I’m filing away for future reference. And thanks so much—we’ll see you next time.
David CluckSounds good. Thanks for having me.